Sixth plenary meeting, 4:00 p.m.
Livadia Palace, USSR
|
Present |
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| United States |
United Kingdom |
Soviet Union |
| President Roosevelt |
Prime Minister Churchill |
Marshal Stalin |
| Secretary Stettinius |
Foreign Secretary Eden |
Foreign Commissar Molotov |
| Fleet Admiral Leahy |
Sir Archibald Clark Kerr |
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| Mr. Hopkins |
Sir Alexander Cadogan |
Mr. Vyshmsky |
| Mr. Byrnes |
Sir Edward Bridges |
Mr. Maisky |
| Mr. Harriman |
Mr. Jebb |
Mr. Gusev |
| Mr. Matthews |
Mr. Wilson |
Mr. Gromyko |
| Mr. Hiss |
Mr. Dixon |
Mr. Pavlov |
| Mr. Bohlen |
Major Birse |
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Bohlen Minutes
Leningrad, February 9, 1945, 4 p.m.
Top secret
The President said he understood the Foreign Ministers had another report to make, and he would ask Mr. Stettinius, who presided today, to give it.
Mr. Stettinius then reported on the results of the discussion concerning the Polish question as follows:
The Foreign Ministers discussed at length the Polish Governmental question on the basis of a memorandum submitted by the American Delegation. This memorandum, in accordance with Mr. Molotov’s proposal, agreed to drop the question of the creation of a Presidential Committee.
With respect to reaching a formula on the question of the Polish Government, Mr. Molotov stated that he wished to present to Marshal Stalin certain new considerations advanced in the American memorandum before making a final statement. It was decided to continue discussion of this question at a later date and to report that the three Foreign Ministers thus far had not reached an agreement on the matter.
It was decided, at Mr. Churchill’s request, that the Polish question would be discussed before Mr. Stettinius proceeded with the balance of his report.
Mr. Molotov said that the Soviet Delegation accepted as a basis of discussion the proposal put forward this morning at the meeting by Mr. Stettinius. He said the Soviet Delegation was very anxious to come to an agreement and he believed that this could be done with certain amendments to Mr. Stettinius’ proposal. First, he offered an amendment which dealt with the first sentence of the formula. He suggested that in place of the sentence in Mr. Stettinius’ draft that the following be substituted:
The present Provisional Government of Poland should be reorganized on a wider democratic basis with the inclusion of democratic leaders from Poland itself and from those living abroad, and in this connection this government would be called the National Provisional Government of Poland.
He added that the next two sentences remained unchanged, but he had a slight amendment to the last sentence, namely that the words “non-Fascist and anti-Fascist” be added before the words “democratic parties.” He then said that he felt the last sentence dealing with the responsibilities of the Ambassadors of the three Governments in Warsaw to observe and report on the carrying out of the free elections should be eliminated since he felt certain this would be offensive to the Poles and would needlessly complicate the discussions. He said that it was the first duty of Ambassadors anyway to observe and report, and therefore no such statement is necessary. He concluded that with these slight amendments Mr. Stettinius’ proposal made this morning was acceptable.
Mr. Molotov said he had one more request, and that was that the Subasic-Tito agreement in regard to Yugoslavia would be put into effect. He said that the Prime Minister, in messages to Marshal Stalin, had urged this, that there had been a series of delays, and he felt that agreement should be reached here. He felt that agreement should be reached here at this conference to put this agreement immediately into effect irrespective of the wishes of the King.
The Prime Minister replied he thought that the Yugoslavia question was virtually settled and would take no time, but he thought it better to proceed immediately to discuss the Polish question. He said he was glad to see that an advance had been made at the meeting of the Foreign Ministers and to hear Mr. Molotov’s proposal on the urgent, immediate and painful problem of Poland. He said he wished to make some general suggestions that he hoped would not affect the movements the President had in mind. He said that here, in a general atmosphere of agreement, we should not put our feet in the stirrups and ride off. He said that he felt it would be a great mistake to hurry this question – it is better to take a few days of latitude than to endanger bringing the ship into port. He said it was a great mistake to take hurried decisions on these grave matters. He felt he must study the Polish proposals before giving any opinion.
The President then proposed that Mr. Stettinius should finish his report on the meeting of Foreign Ministers this morning and then the conference would adjourn for half an hour in order to study Mr. Molotov’s amendments to the Polish proposals.
Marshal Stalin and the Prime Minister agreed.
The Prime Minister repeated that he felt that this great prize should not be imperilled by too much haste, and he definitely did not want to leave this conference without an agreement on the subject, which he felt to be the most important we had before us.
Mr. Stettinius then read the following report of the meeting of Foreign Ministers on the results of their discussions on reparations:
The American Delegation submitted a draft proposal on the basic principles of exacting reparations from Germany for study and recommendation by the Moscow Reparations Commission.
Agreement was reached on the first two points relative to which countries should receive reparations, and to the types of reparations in kind Germany should pay.
The Soviet and American Delegations reached agreement on the wording of the third (final) point to the effect that the Reparations Commission should consider in its initial studies as a basis for discussion the suggestion of the Soviet Government, that the total sum of the reparations in accordance with the points (a) and (b) of the preceding paragraph, should be twenty billion dollars and that 50% of it should go to the Soviet Union.
Mr. Eden reserved his position to await instructions from his Government.
The Soviet Delegation stated that reparations payments would be based upon 1938 prices, having possibly in mind increases of 10 to 15% on the prices of the items delivered.
Mr. Stettinius then reported on the results of the discussion at the meeting of Foreign Ministers on the matter of providing machinery in the World Organization for dealing with territorial trusteeships and dependent areas, as follows:
It was agreed that the five Governments which will have permanent seats on the Security Council should consult each other prior to the United Nations Conference [on] providing machinery in the World Charter for dealing with territorial trusteeship and dependent areas.
The Prime Minister interrupted with great vigor to say that he did not agree with one single word of this report on trusteeships. He said that he had not been consulted nor had he heard of this subject up to now. He said that under no circumstances would he ever consent to forty or fifty nations thrusting interfering fingers into the life’s existence of the British Empire. As long as he was Minister, he would never yield one scrap of their heritage. He continued in this vein for some minutes.
Mr. Stettinius explained that this reference to the creation of machinery was not intended to refer to the British Empire, but that it had in mind particularly dependent areas which would be taken out of enemy control, for example, the Japanese islands in the Pacific. He said that it was felt that provision had to be made for machinery to handle this question of trusteeship for dependent areas taken from the enemy and he repeated that this was not intended to refer to the British Empire.
The Prime Minister accepted Mr. Stettinius’ explanation but remarked it would be better to say it did not refer to the British Empire. He added that Great Britain did not desire any territorial aggrandizement but had no objection if the question of trusteeship was to be considered in relation to enemy territory. He asked how Marshal Stalin would feel if the suggestion was made that the Crimea should be internationalized for use as a summer resort.
Marshal Stalin said he would be glad to give the Crimea as a place to be used for meetings of the three powers.
Mr. Stettinius then completed reading the report of the meeting of Foreign Ministers, as follows:
Trusteeships (continued)
It was also agreed that this subject should be discussed at the United Nations Conference itself.
The Sub-Committee appointed yesterday is continuing its work and will report to the Foreign Ministers today. This report will include matters pertaining to the form of the invitation to the forthcoming Conference. This subject was discussed at today’s meeting, and there appears to be an identity of views thereon.
Iran
Sufficient time had not elapsed to permit the Soviet Delegation to give proper study to a paper submitted by Mr. Eden on this question. The subject was consequently not discussed.
Yugoslavia
On the proposal of the Chairman, it was agreed that representatives of Mr. Eden and Mr. Molotov should be appointed to draw up a statement on the Yugoslav situation.
There was also agreement that before the termination of the Crimean Conference it would be desirable that agreement should be reached on the execution of the Subasic-Tito agreement.
The Prime Minister then asked if the Soviet Government had agreed to the two amendments proposed by Mr. Eden in regard to the Subasic-Tito agreement.
Mr. Molotov replied that it was a question of putting the agreement speedily into effect and that amendments meant more delays. He said that it would be better to ask Tito and Subasic concerning the amendments after the agreement had gone into effect.
The Prime Minister inquired whether it was too much to ask that legislative acts of the temporary authorities be subject to confirmation by democratic processes.
Marshal Stalin said that delays were very undesirable and that if the British proposed two more amendments the Soviet Government might propose some of their own. In the meantime, the government of Yugoslavia was held in the balance.
The Prime Minister said you couldn’t say this, as Tito was a dictator and could do what he wants.
Marshal Stalin replied that Tito is not a dictator but the head of a national committee without any clear government, and this is not a good situation.
Mr. Eden replied that it was not a question of amendments before the agreement went into force but merely that this conference request that they be adopted. He said that Subasic was going to ask for it anyway and as Tito would agree everything would be all right.
Marshal Stalin said the first of the British amendments provided that any former members of the Skupshtina who had not collaborated with the Germans should be included in the anti-Fascist Vetch, and the second suggested that all legislative acts of the anti-Fascist Vetch should be confirmed by a regularly elected body. He said that he agreed with these amendments and found them good, but first he would like the government to be formed and then propose the amendments to it.
Mr. Eden remarked that he felt if we could agree here on the amendments then we could ask Tito after the agreement was in force to adopt them.
Marshal Stalin agreed to this proposal. He added that he thought it would be a good idea to send a telegram stating the desires of the three powers to have the agreement put into effect irrespective of the King’s wishes.
The Prime Minister and Mr. Eden explained that the question of the King had been settled and anyway wasn’t important, and Subasic was on his way to Yugoslavia, unless weather had prevented him, to put the agreement into effect. The Prime Minister added that he thought we should here agree to advise the adoption of the amendments.
Marshal Stalin said that he had already agreed, and as a man of his word he would not go back on it.
There was then a half-hour intermission for the study of the Polish proposals.
The President said that after studying Mr. Molotov’s amendment we were now very near agreement and it was only a matter of drafting. He said that for those governments which still recognized the London government the use of the words “Provisional Government” was somewhat difficult, and he felt that the first words of Mr. Molotov’s amendment might read “The Government now operating in Poland.” He said he felt it was very important for him in the United States that there be some gesture made for the six million Poles there indicating that the United States was in some way involved with the question of freedom of elections, and he therefore felt that the last sentence concerning the reports of the Ambassadors was important. He repeated that he felt, however, that it was only a matter of words and details and the three Foreign Ministers might meet tonight to discuss it.
The Prime Minister said he agreed with the President that progress had been made, but he felt that the draft might be tied up by the Foreign Ministers this afternoon. He said that he had two points now that he wished to emphasize. He felt it was desirable to mention in the beginning the new situation that had been created as a result of the liberation of Poland by the Red Army which called for a government more broadly based. He said this might be an ornament but nevertheless an important ornament. He said the second question was more important and related to the last sentence of the United States draft. He said he would make an appeal to Marshal Stalin in that one of the great difficulties in the Polish situation was the lack of accurate information, and we were thus called on to make a decision of great responsibility on the basis of inadequate information. He said that we know that there are bitter feelings among the Poles and fierce language had been used by Osobka-Morawski in regard to the London government, and that he understood the Lublin government had declared its intention to try as traitors the members of the Polish Home Army and the underground forces. He said these reports caused great anxiety and perplexity in England, and he hoped these two points would be considered with Marshal Stalin’s usual patience and kindness.
The Prime Minister continued that he personally would welcome observers of the three powers in any area where they appeared needed. He therefore felt that the last sentence of the United States draft in regard to responsibilities of the Ambassadors was very important. He said that he understood that Tito would have no objection to foreign observers when elections were to be held in Yugoslavia, and the British would welcome observers from the United States and the Soviet Union when elections were held in Greece, and the same would apply to Italy. He said these were not idle requests, since, for example, he knew in Egypt that whatever government held the elections won. He recalled that King Farouk for this reason refused to permit Nahas Pasha to hold an election while the latter was prime minister.
Marshal Stalin remarked that he understood the Egyptian elections where he had heard that the very greatest politicians spent their time buying each other, but this could not be compared with Poland since there was a high degree of literacy in Poland. He inquired as to the literacy in Egypt, and neither the Prime Minister or Mr. Eden had this information at hand.
The Prime Minister remarked that he did not mean to compare Poland with Egypt, but he had to give the House of Commons real assurance that free elections would be held. For instance, would Mikolajczyk be allowed to take part in these elections?
Marshal Stalin remarked that Mikolajczyk was a member of the Peasant Party which wasn’t a Fascist party and therefore he could take part in the elections.
The Prime Minister suggested this question be considered by the Foreign Ministers tonight.
Marshal Stalin remarked that he thought this was a matter which should be discussed in the presence of the Poles.
The Prime Minister said he thought this was a matter which was necessary to carry through and that it was important to assure the House of Commons that free elections would be held in Poland, …
Marshal Stalin, in reply to this observation, said they were good people and in olden times many of them were scientists. He mentioned Copernicus in this connection. He admitted that they were still quarrelsome and there were still some Fascist elements in Poland, and that was why “non-Fascist, etc.” had been added to the term “democratic parties.”
The President said he would like to add one word. He felt that the elections was the crux of the whole matter, and since it was true, as Marshal Stalin had said, that the Poles were quarrelsome people not only at home but also abroad, he would like to have some assurance for the six million Poles in the United States that these elections would be freely held, and he said he was sure if such assurance were present that elections would be held by the Poles there would be no doubt as to the sincerity of the agreement reached here.
Marshal Stalin then said he had before him the Declaration on Liberated Europe, and Mr. Molotov had one small change to propose. He said that in the fourth paragraph, after the part about consulting the other United Nations, he suggested adding the following:
In this connection, support will be given to the political leaders of those countries who have taken an active part in the struggle against the German invaders.
Marshal Stalin remarked that with this slight amendment he found the Declaration acceptable.
The President pointed out that the Declaration would of course apply to any areas or countries where needed as well as to Poland.
The Prime Minister said he did not dissent from the President’s proposed Declaration as long as it was clearly understood that the reference to the Atlantic Charter did not apply to the British Empire. He said he had already made plain in the House of Commons that as far as the British Empire was concerned the principles already applied. He said he had given Mr. Willkie a copy of his statement on this subject.
The President inquired if that was what had killed Mr. Willkie.
The President said that in earlier drafts France had been included but was now absent.
Marshal Stalin remarked that three powers were better than four.
The Prime Minister said it might be possible to ask France to associate itself with the Declaration.
The President suggested that this matter be considered by the three Foreign Ministers tonight.
Marshal Stalin said that the Prime Minister need have no anxiety that Mr. Molotov’s amendment was designed to apply to Greece.
The Prime Minister said he was not anxious about Greece – that he merely desired that everybody should have a fair chance and do his duty.
Marshal Stalin said he thought it would have been very dangerous if he had allowed other forces than his own to go into Greece.
The Prime Minister said he would welcome a Soviet observer in Greece.
Marshal Stalin said he had complete confidence in British policy in Greece.
The Prime Minister expressed gratification in this statement.
The Prime Minister then said that they should touch on, at this conference, the question of war criminals – that is, those whose crimes had no geographical limitation.
Mr. Molotov inquired whether his amendment to the Declaration was acceptable.
The President replied that he thought it should be considered by the Foreign Ministers.
Marshal Stalin said that we could then consider it agreed that the Tito-Subasic agreement should go into effect immediately.
The Prime Minister concurred.
Marshal Stalin made some reference to sending a telegram to Tito but the suggestion was not pursued.
The Prime Minister said that he personally had drafted the Declaration on German atrocities issued by the Moscow Conference which dealt with the subject of the main criminals whose crimes had no geographical location. He said it was an egg that he had laid himself and he thought a list of the major criminals of this category should be drawn up here. He said he thought they should be shot once their identity is established.
Marshal Stalin asked about Hess.
The Prime Minister said he thought that events would catch up with Hess. He said he believed these men should be given a judicial trial.
Marshal Stalin replied in the affirmative. He then asked if the war criminal question applied to prisoners of war.
The Prime Minister replied that it did if they had violated the laws of war. He said that we should merely have an exchange of views here and no publicity should be given to the matter.
Marshal Stalin inquired if the offensive on the Western Front had begun.
The Prime Minister said yes – about 100,000 British launched an attack yesterday morning and made an advance of about 3,000 yards over a five-mile front. He said the defense had been weak except in two villages, and were now in contact with the defenses of the Siegfried Line. He said the second wave, of the United States 9th Army, was to start tomorrow. He added that this offensive was to continue and grow in intensity.
The meeting then adjourned until four o’clock tomorrow.