Why did the fascists and communists hate each other?

Ok, I really don’t know much about them. But judging from the molotov-ribbentrop pact, both support the aggressive takeover of countries if it benefits them and in communism all land belongs to the government and both are dictatorships. So naturally they should work together. But that doesn’t happen as hitler invades the ussr and calls it a war of extermination and battle of ideologies.

So why did one view the other as the worst ideology possible?

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You will useful videos on youtube by TIK. He narrates a good outline of the differences in Italian Facists-German Nat Socialists, Communism, Marx, Capitalism, Socialism, etc.

I’m not endorsing all of what he says, but his presentation is well researched and he relies on known historians for context.

Cheers-John

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but isn’t his views national socalism (nazi) is socalism heavily contested? So I don’t whether I should believe what he is saying or not.

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“Heavily contested by whom?” is the question. TIK has a lot of sources to back him up. Always look at the description of his videos for these sources (which I’d argue is the more important thing to do):

Just because it’s not of one’s political persuasion, or “heavily contested” as you put it, doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

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The people mentioned in the link above and bunch of people duking it out on his video and on reddit, which is why I was scared of looking into it. His other videos such as why didn’t Hitler go through turkey to get oil or the terrible logistics of the wermacht or the reason why Hitler had to start WW2 they are great.

That is the only video by him I am not so sure of.

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Look into it. Don’t be scared off because of heated debates and political arrogance. A proper historian would seek the whole story, not just the soundbites. :slight_smile:

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Precisely Norman,… listen to what TIK says and then find counter views and evaluate them, making sure they are using sources-that proves they’re serious historians.

Afterward, decide for yourself what’s ‘truth’

Cheers

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The book “the battle for Spain” by Antony Beevor gives a solid insight in the evolving polisarization between left and right. The right in Spain, (army,church,landowners,monarkist and central government) was horrified by the russian revolution, and the left openly proclaimed that the civil war could be neccessary. I guess there is a great similarity to the situation in Germany and Italy in the thirties. And that’s the reason Germany and Italy ended up supporting Franco. (as the US also did with credits and materials, but Spain stayed out of WW2 because they were depending on US import)

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A very big welcome :pray: to the forum Finn and indeed, Beevor wrote a very good book on the intricate Spanish Civil War.

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TIK’s presentation is well done but deliberately omits things that do not fit his narrative as well as selective picking and choosing of quotes by the likes of Hitler and again leaving out the parts that don’t fit what TIK’s devoted followers want to hear.

Anton Drexler, the founder of the German Workers Party (DAP) made it clear that his intention was to have a party representing workers to organize them for nationalist purposes, in opposition to socialism and communism which Drexler both abhorred, he was very concerned about how workers were attracted to socialism and communism and sought to counter this. Drexler had been around in right wing circles for some time before founding the party.

Many of the DAP’s early members were also members of the Thule Society. According to Hitler biographer Ian Kershaw, the organization’s membership list read like a who’s who of Nazi sympathizers and leading figures in Munich, including Rudolf Hess, Hans Frank, Alfred Rosenberg, Dietrich Eckart and Karl Harrer.

The Thule Society was originally a “German study group”, intended to be the Munich branch of the Germanenorden (Germanic Order). A primary focus of the Thule Society was racial theory. They also sought to combat Jews and Communists.

Later, the renamed NSDAP (formerly DAP) joined the Harzburg Front, which was a radical right wing anti-democratic alliance in opposition to socialism and communism which they felt controlled the Weimar Republic.

TIK then quotes Hitler as saying “I am a socialist” but conveniently leaves out the part where Hitler’s definition of socialist is essentially the definition of racial nationalist.

And if you really think about it, according to him and the echo chamber on his channel, just about everybody was a socialist. By his definition, cardinal Richelieu of France was a socialist, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia was a socialist, Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany was a socialist, emperor Franz-Joseph of Austria-Hungary was a socialist, Bismarck was a socialist, Napoleon was a socialist, Julius Caesar was a socialist, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain were socialists and so on.

Entire libraries have been filled with books, articles and claims by ‘creationists’ insisting to their last breath that there is a god or maybe even more than one, but any real evidence is still lacking as of today whereas ‘evolution’ has more evidence every day, and will have more still by tomorrow.

One might almost describe TIK-ism as a religion in and of itself, it certainly has a lot of believers. It is a damn shame though, because I feel that it diminishes his other work that he seems to have a compulsive need to create a false narrative out of reasons of personal ideology.

When a person starts advocating in favor of privatized police force, that’s where they lose me, because the biggest examples of privatized police force that have ever been were Pinkerton strike breakers and slave catchers. I wonder if TIK would be in favor of either… hey… if the free market says it is a good idea to have slavery and whatnot, who is the government to tell the market they can’t have it? Okay maybe that last bit is an exaggerated way of describing his personal ideology but in essence no different from how he structurally and deliberately misrepresents Nazi ideology.

It is funny though, when you remind his followers that christian conservatives (especially the Catholic Church) are likely to have been responsible for a greater number of deaths than two particular 20th century ideologies combined. Just think of the physical and cultural genocides, massacres, burnings, land theft, resource theft, child theft, religious wars, institutional discrimination, exploitation and repression religion is at least co-responsible for between the 14th and 19th centuries. Between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the rise of Revolutionary France, conservatives were basically in control almost everywhere nearly all of the time.

Perhaps someone should make a five hour video on that. The victims recently uncovered in mass graves near Catholic schools in Canada are just a fraction of the gargantuan scale of terror the church helped inflict on native populations.

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Here is the guy on this topic for the forum-watch and judge for yourself:

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And I recommend watching the whole video. The whole thing.

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And check out his sources as well.

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Tik does create some long videos lol. I tend to support many of his arguments but I will admit staying awake is sometimes an issue.

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Yeah, I see that. TIK really needs a script doctor for his longer videos. I get why his videos are long, but he could’ve articulated his points better in a shorter time.

Doesn’t detract from his content though.

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Totally agree. I really enjoy his economic theories of the war and can see how much effort he puts into getting the details.

Give the guy an editor!

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Great points marsattacks :grinning: and glad you are back.

Glad it came out in Europe, I actually know a few “First Nation” Canadians who were kidnapped as children bij (that is there term for “indians as most Europeans still tend to use”. Same in Australia were it came out in the 90s.

As for the National Socialists. Some on the right want to put them on the left and some on the left to the right. I am not planning to watch him for 5 hours but he loves to find “quotes” and even if the National Socialists had some properties like the “Volkswagen” and Volksradio" that in no way equals them to “Social Democrats” <= Most people who call themselves Socialist in the West are here. A smaller number has a history of adoring genocidal maniacs like Mao/Stalin but loke “Conservative Democrats” they don’t want a genocide.

As for the Christian Church Luther is still revered in spite of his antisemitism, the Catholic Church has a lousy history as well. This is not to say that ALL christians are guilty.

I HAVE a real problem with the Catholic Church offering some aid in Tarawa but also setting up schools which flatly tell the Children that the should get rid of the old useless local religion and embrace Catholic Christianity. (How do I know?. I read it in a book of a school kid who was also on the Truck which functions as public transports.

Obviously all the organizations point to the members that were against the National Socialists and distance themselves from the enables. It would just be better to recognize history for what it was and stay away from false comparisons.

As for TIK, I said before it might have to do with current antisemitism problems in British politics were the Wiesenthal center and actually the labour party came down hard on dubious characters. Kind of proving that they too aren’t “National Socialists”. I think one of TIK’s weaknesses is to rely to heavy on “quotes” Quotes are great but these detract from the big pictures especially if this involve “isms” which are notoriously vague. Moreover 5+ hours of very weak points don’t make a good point, that would be the “washing list fallacy”. He is good on other less controversial stuff.

Chewie

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I’m glad to be back, I had a rather nasty health problem related to a certain virus I need not introduce.

I guess it’s what I got for thinking that it could not affect me and even if it did it would be mild. Just imagine walking a small flight of stairs and being totally exhausted, and that for half a year. I certainly have learned to appreciate how every breath is precious.

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I think that he (TIK) has some good ideas and does do a lot of research.

However, letting personal ideological convictions influence one’s historical review, so to say, diminishes all the rest of his work. The thing is, he did a great presentation on how David Irving tries to gaslight people concerning Hitler and the Holocaust. Because of that it is disappointing to me that he would basically use similar techniques in order to spin a false narrative, egged on by the echo chamber whom wants to be told exactly this false narrative.

In the 60s and 70s there were a lot of ‘lefties’ who denied the reality about the Soviet Union, and could not be convinced no matter what evidence was presented and would tell you Stalin was a right winger.
But these days, it is right wing gospel that seems to hold that all the 20th century baddies were lefties and that slavery was done by democrats and therefore… presto… left = bad and right = good.

This blatantly ignores how the bulk of the pro slavery side were conservatives. Funny how that that always gets glossed over. The opposition to the Civil Rights movement came largely from conservatives (many of the Republicans that voted for it would today be hounded out of the party by Tea Partiers and Trumpers). To the degree that people still admire the Confederacy the bulk of those admirers are on the right wing today.

Also, it glosses over or seeks to distort how the early DAP (NSDAP) leaders were, with very few exceptions, a veritable who’s who of early 1920s underground radical right in Bavaria.
Considering whom they allied themselves with (Stahlhelm, Freikorps, Thule, Harzburg) and where their early members came from, there is little doubt as to where the Nazis positioned themselves, and it was decidedly not on the left. Above all, the party stood for racial nationalism and everything else was secondary.

Some people apparently really do want a return to the ‘good old days’ when there were no regulations, there was no worker protection or consumer protection or environmental protection, and really do believe that if you abolish the government you get paradise. There’s a reason that there are no libertarians in Somalia or Afghanistan… well… apart from the warlords.

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Welcome back and I pray for your continued good health. Improvement comes one stair at a time. As I get older that becomes more and more clear and if you aren’t taking those steps, you are falling back.

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