There is a lot if confusion at this time about the Bulgarians since they are distancing themselves form being with Nazi Germany and arguing that the population that they terrorized wanted them just because some of them collaborated. Please share some light on this topic.
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What happened to the Jews and resistance fighters in the territories that were occupier by Bulgaria?
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Uh, oh. It looks like the North Macedonians discovered the forum. Get ready everyone. You are about to hear the full story of how the evil Bulgar-Tatar fascists decimated the peace loving (non-Greek) Macedonians.
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I donāt get it why you are hating on me now I just want to fight against holocausts denial and I want to put responsibility where it should be. And there is no such thing as north macedonians that is really offensive and improper so I ask kindly to use just Macedonians.
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You are right, my fellow North Macedonian. We need put the blame where it should be.
Sorry, guys. I need to confessā¦ WE DID IT! Thatās right! WE did the Holocaust! Thatās right! It was us: the evil Bulgar-Tatar Fascists! All these years you thought it was the Nazis and their braindead ideology, but you were wrong! It was all an elaborate Bulgar-Tatar Fascist lie! Not sure why we did it though. Maybe because we are eeeevil.
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Forgive me for asking, but are you trying to be condescending? If so, thatās no healthy way to debate him.
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I can see why you would think that. Sorry for that, I probably need to give a little bit of context.
Years ago, the (then) FYROM government comissioned a movie be made about the Holocaust in Vardar Macedonia (and soccer). Some Bulgarian MEPs stated that this could be used as anti-Bulgarian propaganda and the director of the movie responded by calling Bulgarians āholocaust deniersā. Thatās literally where his argument comes from.
Please, if you need any more info ask away. I wrote a 40 000 work Master Thesis on the subject, so Iām very passionate about it.
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I see. Iāll be looking forward to this sometime. Iām not that familiar with this aspect of the war, so keep going, both of you. 
Just do it rationally. If thereās anything I learned when I was in high school and college, itās that talking down to your opponent(s) in a debate will guarantee not only terrible results but also the opponentās growing lack of interest in your views.
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The aspect isnāt complicated really. Sadly, itās become political tool in recent years. The whole Holocaust aspect is simple: Bulgariaās Jewish population of 49 000 was saved in 1943, however, 11 000 Jews from occupied Thrace and Vardar Macedonia was deported. Naturally, Bulgaria prefers to talk about the saving part. Meanwhile in North Macedonia, particularly the nationalist supporters of the VMRO-DPMNE party, use this as part of the anti-Bulgarian agenda.
In short, itās all politics. Just a shame we have to drag the rest of the world in it.
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I have met veteran of WW2 that fought the Bulgarians and the Germans in Macedonia I have seen the faces of the people that lived through the occupation and the cocurators werenāt gentle whit the people they werenāt allowed to talk and study in their language and the proof of that is that I found books with the Bulgarian coat of arms and the name of my school. And that was done forcefully they changed the surnames of the people I it is illogical that your can say that that is acceptable and that is propaganda my great-grandparent had surname change four times. In the ottoman empire he had his macedonian surname, when the serbs arrived it changed again, than the bulgars changed it again, and he changed it himself after the war. To negate that it was occupation it is like for Germany to say that they just administrate Czechoslovakia. AND PLEASE DONāT MAKE ANY OF THIS POLITICAL BEACUSE THAT IS SIMPLY OFFESIVE I DONāT CONSIDER POLITICS RELEVANT FOR THIS SUBJECT.
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He was distraught that it was made a political issue.
Iām a bit confused. Did your great-grandad had to change his Serbian name to a Bulgarian name, or his (North) Macedonian name to a Bulgarian name? Also, how do you determine if an occupation is hostile by looking at a book with Bulgarian coat of arms on it?
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I donāt try to say that Bulgaria is all bad I donāt know anything about the other part that they occupied or what they did in Bulgaria , I just what for people to see the struggle of the Macedonians since almost no one speaks about them in any way in this war since there had been mentions about the occupation of northern Greece I want to spread some light on the terrors that happened in now north Macedonia. If you thing to say that forcefully changing surnames, forcing people to speak your language and dozens of mass killings done by the Bulgarian army isnāt hostile, I donāt know what is? And I am kindly asking you not to say north Macedonians since there is no such thing the state is called North Macedonia but the people are called Macedonian that is really offensive. I have been polite with you so far and I never said that could offend you.
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I thought you said you wanted to combat Holocaust denialā¦ Anyways, Iām not familiar with Bulgarian mass killings in North Macedonia. Can you give a few examples?
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First the deportation of the Jews is a mass killing you can see their ashes in the museum of the holocaust in Skopje, the killing at Vatasha near Ohird where there was a mass killing. In the village of Dabnica neer Prilep Pusta Kula killing near Veles, in the town of Ohrid there is a memorial for some hanged people 25000 Serbs deported form Macedonia for now reason and I want to shed some light on Macedonia since the Jews were also living there why should their story be forgotten? And there are probably a lot more killing of Macedonians but the topic isnāt researched as well as it should be and since Macedonia isnāt very large the scale isnāt as big as Poland or the USSR but it did happen.
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Youāre saying Bulgarians killed the Jews at Treblinka? Thatās a bit messed up.
Also, can you give some more details on all the mass killings near Ohrdid and etc? Maybe a number or a date? Anyone can just list off a bunch of towns and say bad things happened there. The Yugoslavia thread for example has a very detailed account of every single battle that took place in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia; and they also include links and sources. Iām sure someone who is as interested in North Macedonian history as you could easily find more specific details.
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If the Bulgarians didnāt transported them they would not be killed. If it isnāt dome directly doesnāt mean you didnāt seal their fates.
So the mass killing are not for a lot of people most likely 10 to 30 people . The topic isnāt as researched as it should be since sites have been found as recently as 2003 so there are probably a lot more than. I am not a historian and that why I ask the historians what happened. The information exists and you can look up āŠŠ°ŠŗŠµŠ“Š¾Š½ŃŠŗŠ° ŠµŠ½ŃŠøŠŗŠ»Š¾ŠæŠµŠ“ŠøŃŠ°ā, ŠŠŠŠ£, Š”ŠŗŠ¾ŠæŃŠµ, 2009 page 75 and 249 you could find it on the internet. There are more souses but they are in the archives and libraries around Macedonia since they havenāt been made in digital form.
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Me? I didnāt do it. I wasnāt even born then. My grandma was 11 years old.
Also, I need to point out that your motivation seems to change a lot. First you ask a question that is more of a statement. Then you say you want to combat Holocaust denial. Then you say you want to shed some light on what happened because itās not a well known subject. And now you say that you donāt know precisely what happened and want TimeGhost to research it for you, despite the sources only being in North Macedonian.
Also, I googled the Encyclopedia you mentioned and I discovered these interesting āreviewsā:
- United States Ambassador to Macedonia, Philip Reeker in an interview with Radio Free Europe said, āIt is important that Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and DUI leader Ali Ahmeti together sat down to end the cycle of insults and threats that aim to break the positive direction in which Macedonia moves. For me it is clear that the vast majority of citizens of this country for a peaceful and prosperous future in Europe as part of the Euro-Atlantic family, as part of the European Union and NATO. And we cannot allow individuals who may have their agenda to distort this. I think that the leaders of this country demonstrate that.ā
- New Democracy asked Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski to refrain from writing in the encyclopedia.
- The first Macedonian encyclopedia threatens the constitutional multi-ethnic character of Macedonia, promotes inter-ethnic hatred, and falsifies the history of the Albanian people. It insults the feelings of every Albanian, as well as harms relations with American and British allies. We ask MANU to soon withdraw the scandalous encyclopedia, engage Albanian experts in the preparation of the history of Albanians in Macedonia, publicly apologized to the Albanian American and the British people, and to condemn the views of Blaze Ristovski. Otherwise, we will consider these views are shared by the MANU. The same demand is made by the government, which is a supporter of this project. He said Limani Obadiah, a representative of the civil movement āWake Up.ā
It sounds like your source was quickly discontinued due to it being too biased. Given that it was endorsed by Premier Gruevski, I can completely believe that.
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I admit was in the wrong to put you.
I donāt need to prove that bad thing happened in the war I think that you canāt say otherwise. It did, whether you admit it or not. I canāt make you see that you must do that on your own. For the sources it states that the problem isnāt the invalid content but that the Albanians were excluded that has nothing to do with the occupation. Iāve seen the memorial on a few places their is one in my town to people killed in the occupation. If you visit almost any city in North Macedonia you can see that.
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I donāt think anyone here denies that really bad things happened during WW2 (and other wars for that matter). It is just that there were so many incidents around the world that not all are common knowledge, although the bigger picture is clear. Those that happened close to ones home are those that seem really important and forgotten.
In Finnish civil war 1918 there were some horrible brutalities and in Joensuu (where I currently reside) here is a monument for one incident that happened here. There were 100 prisoners of war (Reds) and the (White) guards got drunk, marched them to the forest and shot 99 of them on the spot. Also there isnāt a 100% consensus about what to call the civil war, but that is mostly personal preferences (and biases) and I acknowledge that the term civil war is the most neutral term and is used by historians and professors alike.
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Speaking of drunken soldiers, there is memorial plaque in the city of Burgas, dedicated to the tens of Soviet soldiers that died there. How did they die? Was there a battle that took place? Were they killed in a riot? Or maybe they were POWs who died of torture? Nope. While stationed there, they broke into a warehouse and found a huge supply of, what seemed to be, alcohol. Only problem is, it wasnāt alcohol. It was poisonous chemicalsā¦ That part is not mentioned in the plaque.
Now, I will give the North Macedonians the benefit of the doubt and say that they were not all poisoned by alcohol-like-chemicals, however, I do have one question. Just one. And I hope that it wonāt be ignored like the vast majority of my previous questions:
How many of those plaques/memorials include some variation of the phrase āBulgar Fascist Occupierā?
For our foreign friends, I will explain the context once I, hopefully, receive an answer.
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