I saw the trash piece and interesting how different discipline in different armies can be.
My take on this small town thing is that media is so out of touch with real people as to be useless. They say America is so disunited but I know that in towns across America just like in Russia people will serve when needed and do it proudly. Russian civilians are not going to break because of a little hardship. They have food and honor and more money than normal.
We can see them as performing evil deeds and they are but they think they are the good guys. Just like our troops in their wars. Seems to be human nature.
I wonder how long NATO stays United? I hope we can stay the course.
Well I guess we are the target audience for this. Do you buy that we need them?
I think the education argument is weak. Yes we donāt have first hand knowledge of fighting Russia but they donāt have knowledge of fighting NATO.
Yes they are corrupt but many governments are corrupt including some NATO ones.
I believe the American public does not feel this is a war we should be supporting. Many of them donāt remember the Cold War. We also seem to have this arrogance that if we donāt help the war will be over and we can solve our own problems. Part of this stems from very stupid politicians who donāt explain what is going on. I think it will be interesting to see if we send more support as we stopped allocating new money for 45 days. The plan is separate legislation for Ukraine but the political fight might keep it from getting voted on. If it is voted, it will pass.
Does NATO need Ukraine? Ukraine was the most corrupt European country until late 2022. It is still fighting corruption within all levels of government and it is also dealing with different ethnic groups within its borders some of whom are still die hard Russian supporters and want to rejoin Russia and want the USSR back. President Zelensky has made leaps and bounds in combating corruption and has done so in a relatively short time which is virtually unheard of in most countries.
What Ukraine would bring to NATO is its massive manufacturing and raw material capability that only 6 NATO members can exceed in(Canada, The US, Great Britain, France, Germany and Poland) which is a big boon for the alliance having a big boost in manufacturing and raw materials. Militarily Ukraine is still mostly using outdated Soviet and Russian equipment and roughly half its military is still using soviet style tactics although they are receiving more and more training now. Add to that NATO would have access to five major ports in Ukraine.
So again does NATO need Ukraine? Itās a complicated answer but in my opinion NATO would benefit from Ukraineās entry into the alliance but it does not require Ukraine.
On the other side does Ukraine need NATO? Ukraine wants access to NATO for not only security reasons but it gives the country access to training, modern equipment, modern weaponry and the backing of the most powerful military alliance in the world. Also joining NATO for Ukraine would give it access to markets it previously couldnāt access or had limited access to. It also gives it a presence on the world stage that it did not have before. So Ukraine needs NATO.
Also I think the sanctions might have the opposite effect. Really rich Russians could sail away with their yachts while the working Russian suddenly was banned from Apple Pay and couldnāt use it for his metro ticket to work in Moscow? Moscow was an extremely progressive place when I was there.
Say China puts sanctions (over North Korea or whatever) on the US and suddenly you would lose your access to bank accounts Hypothetically. Would the average American give in OR support the leadership and work around the sanctions. Russia has very good programmers who made alternatives and nationalized the businesses which were abandoned by the West, So they have their own versions of McDonalds. Actually get by and it is easy to laugh at their low incomes because of the low Ruble but prices are lower there as well and trade via Kazachstan and is still ongoing and France still buys Uranium from Russia, oil is relabeled.
The other thing is that in the Great Patriotic War many Russians died as well and it is not just the legacy of war and how Westerners sees them. Lots of Western books mention the horrible rape during the capture of Berlin but not the raping murdering and looting by mainly German, but also Hungarian, Rumanian, Austrian and the array of willing volunteers. My grandma did see Germans shooting Russians for fun and that was in the Arbeitseinsatz. Of course after Pattons Army arrived the same people played Saubermann and the river was clogged with Nazi flags junk.
For the USA WW2 was a big lesson to not get another Pearl Harbor but for Russia the WW2 was much much worse AND they think Westerners look down on them. Like the visceral hate for Jews there still is the view that Russians āother peopleā as well. For a lot of Russians a strong man even a bad one means survival.
Putin can of course die but others would probably just take over. So I wonāt count on it. The chance of a friendly to the West Regime change is minimal and notably because the high-tech is no longer exclusive to the West, the Russians were able to copy or make their own versions.
Goodby to our (Western tech) superiority
Oh and I would like to see Putin change his mind and leave the Ukraine. Being realistic is not being pro-Russian.
And they just happen to forget ( thanks to the Sovjet propaganda) that they started on the side of the Naziās invading several countries and killing and murdering as they went before Hitler thought it would be a good idea to invade the part of Poland that Stalin invaded.
A lot of people died during the war but the Soviet union was not the victim but one of the instigators.
A lot of bad things have happened in the past and just like the scorpion we can not help it it is just in human nature that we will hurt others.
And to make ourself not feel so bad about hurting others we will just tel the tale of some perceived slight why we needed to hurt them.
Well, like any video produces by the Belligerants it could be propaganda and staged.
Note that the Russian flag is covered with trash. So the maker wants us to believe that the Russian dump trash over their flag?
Or could it be that these great pictures were staged somewhere to make a point? Maybe he āexpertā who made the video missed the obvious clue. But I can understand if you want to make videos and both parties supply you with input why not use it? But it might be wise to realize that BOTH sides here provide staged footage!
I agree that the Soviet Union also was one of the instigators and that the Soviet Russian history (like our colonial history) is onesided. I donāt think they completely were on the side of the Naziās but both wanted the destruction of Poland. And the Soviet Union wanted the Allies to keep fighting the Germans so both run out of steam and then take over the rest.
But at a personal level the Russians and Ukranians suffered massively and the āubermensch policy and deeds of the Germans still resonateā. The Germans had a policy of Slavs are āUntermenschenā and raped, murdered and looted all over. Most people suffered massively and indeed there always has been a lot of bias against them here in the West. Those are not fairy tales as on forum member once claimed
I know the history is mixed but I can see their point of view and they very bow to sanctions. In spite of the umpteenth article that Putin is about to fall.
It seems more that the NATO coalition is suffering dents now with e.g. Slovakia , Poland and maybe US. It would not be the first time NATO exits a war.
After 9 years of having such discussions, I would really like to point out that Ukraine has made incredible progress against corruption.
Ukrainian officials have to publically state their wealth in detail, including wealth owned by their familiy. This is not the case in most EU countries btw.
Ukraine has introduced an anti-corruption special court, an anti-corruption investigation bureau and has already proscecuted over 60 political individuals. There is even an investigation against Kolomojski, the oligarch widely regarded to be behind Zelensky 3 years ago.
The corruption issue beyond that is one that is hard to measure. After all, most people refer to the corruption PERCEPTION index. Surveys among Ukrainian business men indicate that corruption occurs rarely for them (only 2% said it was a problem).
Meanwhile, I live in Germany. We had countless corruption scandals involving huge sums. Our chancellor is under investigation for corruption. Maybe we should collectively reset out perception a bit.
I disagree. I am in favor of an independent Ukraine in NATO, not as a tool for geopolitics in the caucasus but as a partner to support partners outside NATO in pursuit of sefdetermination and selfdefense.
Whatever you think of Stalin he was no Hitler. The idea of teaming up with Nazi Germany to take on the Soviets is ludicrous, would Jewish soldiers like Ed Shames 101st AB then have put together with the Nazis. And at the time Germany surrendered Japan was still fighting and a conventional invasion would have been a nightmare. The US actually trained the Soviet forces to land in the Kuriles (Northern Japan) as that was part of the plan for the invasion;
That Churchill and Patton were staunch anti-communists is correct but it is easy to say the Allied forces should have taken on the Soviets but there was no appetite for more millions of casualties and destruction. Also there is NO evidence I know of that Patton REALLY wanted a direct war with the Soviets.
Also the British kicked out anti-communist Churchill during the elections.
Patton died already, If you want to discuss come up with your own arguments why you think what you think!
Note this argument is probably taken out of context and often used in far right circles. Therefore reminder: Holocaust denial or any support for Nazi-Germany is not allowed under the forum rules! Clear? And greetings to Illinois
I wasnāt there, so I donāt know who, or why. Itās all water under the bridge. The word Ludicrous to me is a bit odd. Thanks anyhow for your comment. I feel much better.
I paid a yearās membership to be called everything in the book for my opinions. Keep the money and Thanks, But Iām done with Know-it-all Hight-brows
