The valiant Defenders of Ukraine

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Agree, but we are ALL the target of disinformation campaigns. I totally understand that Zelenski is fighting for survival aganst a horrible enemy and that he has limited influence and needs any fighters he can get. In his position i would not dump his Azov battaillon which according the Deutsche Welle was part of

“E.g. a battalion used to characterise a nation is disinformation.”
Good point but I did not characterize an entire nation. It is great that they have a Jewish Prime Minister so they are moving away.
Totally aware and as historians this is a great example of the “fog of war” which is in every war. The problem of historians is often that they don’t have to make decisions but just write about then. E.g. Market Garde is seen as pure lunacy or a calculated risk based on limited information. The Azov battaillon or naming streets after Nazi collaborators got the Ukrain

“E.g. a battalion used to characterise a nation is disinformation.”
For 1 I did not characterize the Ukraine but it is I think we should not look away. I know the German experience with the holocaust is different from that of the Netherlands. Ad let me be clear :
1 If you want to see a black sun (which the Azov uses) go to Wevelsburg, Himmlers looney tunes religious center SAME symbol
2 The Wolfs angel or whatever their symbol that of troops who fought FOR the holocaust.
3 The Ukraine has a very complex history and I completely understand that they cannot dump their small group of extreme right idiots now as they need every rifle they can bet. BUT before they would join the Nato I expect them to get rid of them (But i doubt if it ever gets that far because the West will do no more than send weapons to them and outsource this war to the resistance and "foreign fighters as usual ! :frowning_face: :

And As for a Neo Nazi battaillion and there is probably a respectful difference between my and your views. I find it bad enough that Germany has a Rommel Kazerne for the man who willingly wanted to go to Palestine to slaughter Jews. He changed his mind because his side was doomed and instead of medals he could have gotten a noose around his neck. Finally If Germany ever get a small battalion with “Black Suns/swastika like symbol” flags from Wevelsburg I would condemn the whole of Germany if they don’t get rid of it immediately. That would not be disinformation! I understand history but my family suffered under the National Socialist and carrying this symbols is not a small thing. Feel free to ask if you want to discuss that.

Oh and again Russia is horrible too and eagerly abusing the the Simon Wiesenthal center by spreading fake news through their hashtags. Very nasty methods.

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Yes there is, because I have for a long time not mistaken hitlers favorate hero for a resistance fighter:

I am sorry, so a small battalion of idiots, not Dutch but German is prooving that Germans failed to be not nazis? If you have any interrest in history: The nazis killed a lot of Germans before 1938, after that time they started to get more victims.

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Yes we are, but the headline of episode 185 is a bit reenforthing the Rommel myth. We need to learn from history to do better, not to look for reasons to go into the future divided.

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I agree we have much to learn from history. That includes not putting leaders on Pedestals. While I think some have no redeeming qualities even the best had flaws and that includes both sides.

I know about disinformation campaigns. The United States are experts at this just as much as Russia and China. I believe in facts but I no longer accept any story at face value. I have been lied to by both sides and the goal seems to be to program us to act how they want. With the arrival of big tech-government cooperation this has become overwhelming and in our face all the time. The US government said publicly the Ukraine has biodefense laboratories. In the same hearing they expressed concern that Russia was close to capturing these sites. Why if they are just defense would there be such concern? Is it true? Could be but too many holes to accept at face value.

TimeGhost tries to get this right. They are not perfect and as has been pointed out elsewhere they sometimes make very obvious mistakes. Do they mean to support Rommel as hero? I don’t believe so but they may have made an editorial choice to not take the time to debunk his story. TimeGhost is good but never let any one source be assumed to be the whole story.

I apologize for not being as up to date on symbols and hate groups. The United States has it’s own culture of hate which is different but I believe most Americans don’t let it dominate their lives. But perhaps that leaves me uninformed on your history. Just because war ended, the hate didn’t go away and a group like the Azov battalion hates like our KKK but as an accepted military unit obviously it’s very concerning. They need to be disbanded and if necessary tried for war crimes. But not this week.

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Mistakes so obvious that it seriously leads me to doubt their intentions of being fair. They’re still in a “good guy/bad guy” dichotomy regarding not only the Ukrainian crisis, but even WWII. They even get some of the stuff on war crimes wrong (like calling the Doolittle Raid a war crime, despite Tokyo’s defenses already being propped up by then – unless you believe what the Japanese government said at the time that it was indeed a war crime).

It even sowed doubts in me over some elements of The Great War show, like Indy’s hosting as compared to Jesse’s.

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Even TG itself is guilty of assuming one source to be the whole story when they used a communist historian as the main, if not only, source for their U.S. Army video:

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I think the Winter War of 1939=1940 a better analogy. Putin looks like he his using typical Russian tactics they love to encircle a city a blast it with artillery. Also as in WW2 and WW1 as soons as you get off the road you’re knee deep in mud.

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84

What do you call a “divided” future? Do you mean a future were we disagree on things. Disagreeing is OK going to war is only ok in extreme circumstances.

Background: My moral compass seems to align most with the Simon Wiesenthal Center who condemns Antisemitism, Racism and e.g. anti-Religious on the left and the right to the chagrin on many “partisans selective condemners”.

One of the reasons Rommel is more difficult to condemn that he was more a willing instrument in exchange for fame and medals. He had no problem with appearing with Hitler and the use of slave labor. Actually he profited from the regime and he only got into depression (source:letters to his wife) when it became obvious Germany was losing the war. So was he depressed because he had a sudden attack of morals towards Jews? Or more likely instead of a glorious career like lots of people admire there would likely be a future with a completely destroyed Germany ahead and a lot of nooses for Hitlers willing followers.

In that sense he is more scary to condemn Rommel than Himmler with his crazy “Black Sun Cult” thought up an Arien history which never was! Rommel was one of the many Nazi supporters as that gave him fame and fortune. However he found out that his “friends” dropped him like a brick when no longer convenient!

So we can totally agree that Putin is the most evil party here. That doesn’t mean that I won’t disagree with the veneration of Rommel by naming the Kazerne after him. The effects are clear as not so long ago Germany had to disband a “Elite unit” the KSK as it became obvious they were National Socialists. Gee…can I blame them when Hitlers most popular general or whatever is on their alma mater?

To use another example the tagesschau who has condemned Russia for the Babi Yar terrain so far refused to condemn the protection the German authorities gave to one of its perpetrators. This hardened German stance has let to a shock withe the Wiesenthal center.

See here:
Last member of Babyn Yar SS murder squad ‘must be put on trial’ - The Jewish Chronicle (thejc.com)

And it the past the Wiesenthal center also gave praise to Germany, so it is not ant-German and they condemn the discrimination of blacks/latinos/islam etc. etc and welcome the Abraham accords and the resulting cooperation.

Jewish group praises Germany for its prosecution of Nazis | Germany | News and in-depth reporting from Berlin and beyond | DW | 12.04.2010

So I don’t see this as a future divided but for me there is moral line and I am more worried about this totally good versus totally evil trope and the framing of anyone who is in any way not on the appropriate extreme.

For one thing this “Extreme good vs evil” thinking is used as a excuse to keep dumping weapons to the Ukraine which carries an escalation risk. Putin already hinted at interdicting (bombing) supply deliveries which would be another step closer to …all out war? nukes? But then I guess “We were the goodies” makes a great epitaph.

So let us all just share our own opinions and cherish that we think differently in this global club and feel free to disagree!

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They are in Mariupol, so may be not this week, but next. Encirceld for some time and wihout water and electricity.

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No, the KSK still exist, but there had been some scandals. A long, but not so important story to me. The German wikipedia page is helpfull.

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OK one of the units was disbanded. Maybe" not so important" to you (to be honest it comes accross as a little indifferenz) . But it is a big scandal definitely after the disastrous behaviour on the German Police during the 1972 Olympics. Is it too much to ask to screen an elite forces for extreme right behaviour? What if some Jews or foreigners got into trouble and the people supposed to free them have secretly sworn allegiance to Adolf Hitler and the holocaust. You cannot be a Nazi and not be pro-holocaust.

If they have to change this from the inside out it is clear that his was important to them and obviously and I found it important!
" In the wake of numerous revelations of far-right activity among the KSK’s ranks, a task force was asked to urgently investigate. Announcing the results alongside Bundeswehr Chief of Defense Eberhard Zorn, Kramp-Karrenbauer said the unit would be given time to put its own house in order.

“The analysis concludes that the KSK cannot persist in its current form. That it must be changed from the inside out and that it must be better reintegrated into the Bundeswehr.”"

Wikipedia is not an academic source by the way as anyone can change it even without trace. Also you are under no obligation to defend the actions of your Country.

But just to be sure for the Allies it is important for them not to have to work with rabid antisemites who in case of the KSK were even storing explosives in house. Kudos to Germany for taking action and hopefully they put in effective controls to not let it happen again!

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Which rabid antisemites? The KSK is trained partly by Israelis. And as your German source (DW Deutsche Welle) schows, there are plenty of people fulltime watching out.

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See article, it is called a scandal with Neo-Nazis who performed the Hitler salute. Why do you refuse to see the link with antisemitism. Or you just honestly don’t know? In that case I might be able to help you. Maybe it is a language issue, maybe it is a weird joke but I am getting a bit concerned about what you are writing here. Maybe reread it?

To state the at least to me, obvious:
That the KSK is partly trained by Israelis is not reassuring because most Israelis happen to be Jews and THUS they would be especially in danger. Obviously recruits don’t get a training budget to spend on whatever country they want to train in. It more likely was part of the mandatory training and Israel happens to have lots of experience with that! So in conclusions that they trained with Israelis does NOT absolve them from being antisemite!

Again:
See below it is called Neo-Nazi scandal => Antisemitism: (Cause and effect, not accidental)

Neo-Nazi scandal hits German elite military unit | News | DW | 01.12.2019

I am not here to bash the German police as like everywhere they are just doing their jobs and I only have good experiences with them and the Germans I know were furious at those people and the Government for not screening them enough!

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Except in modern warfare, encirclements aren’t deal breakers. Wireless communications, modern tunneling, and drones mean that encirclements don’t necessarily lead to decisive victory. The rasputitsa is still VERY MUCH a part of this current war though.

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Excellent points, I didn’t realize that drones can race in supplies as well. Thanks.

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Agree - I too see many similarities between Finish and Ukraine tactics. Don’t worry about the large convoy, but wait until I breaks up and move onto the countryside in small groups. Then the Ukraine’s will wait with Javelins.

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Agree - and it would take a lot of forces to encircle and deploy the forces in a very long frontline that can be attacked in static positions. Seems that the Russians are only able to fight by creation a large humanitarian crises in each city. Pathetic form for warfare.

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hang on… how is it any different from The lufftwafe supplying Stalingrad. If a large number of drones don’t get through, supplies whittle down and then army has to surrender. Plus… drones don’t have armour to prevent them from being shot down by AKA-47s.

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I see, the headline is the proof. So are only the three soldiers or the whole KSK (where our excance started) prooven to be guilty to be rabid antisemites. Btw, KSK is Army not Police.

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Felton has an very interesting background vid on Putin. Not a happy one, any thoughts?

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