Matthews Minutes
Leningrad, February 10, 1945, 4 p.m.
Top secret
The President opened the meeting (which was delayed owing to an earlier discussion between Mr. Churchill and Marshal Stalin) by asking Mr. Eden to render a report on the foreign secretaries’ meetings of last night and this morning.
Eden: I should like to report that with the exception of two points outstanding we have reached a decision on the Polish question. I believe that we have since worked out an agreement with regard to these two points. (He reads the Polish formula, which after some discussion as to wording was finally agreed to.)
Prime Minister: There is no reference in this formula to the frontier question. The world at large will ask about that. We are all agreed I believe about the eastern frontier. We are all agreed in principle about the western frontier. The only question is where the line is to be drawn and how much to say about it in our communiqué. We are doubtful about going further in mentioning frontiers at this stage. I have received a telegram from the War Cabinet deprecating any frontier going as far west as the Neisse. They feel that the population problem is too large to handle.
President: My position is that I would rather hear from the new government of national unity what they think about it. Therefore, I think we had better leave out all references to frontiers.
Prime Minister: On the west?
Stalin: It is important to say something.
Prime Minister: I agree. People will immediately ask what is the settlement on the question of the frontiers. We think that the eastern frontier is settled. On the west the wishes of the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity must be consulted.
President: I do not believe we should say anything in the communiqué. I have no right to make an agreement on boundaries at this time. That must be done by the Senate later. Let the Prime Minister make some public statement when he returns if that is necessary.
Molotov: I think it would be very good if something could be said about full agreement of the three heads of government on the eastern frontier. We could say that the Curzon line is generally representative of the opinion of all present. It is possible that there might be criticism of this for some time but that would be better in the long run. We should either agree or leave to the three foreign ministers to find a formula. I agree that we need say nothing about the western frontier.
Prime Minister: I agree we must say something.
Molotov: Yes, but less specific if you wish.
Prime Minister: We must say that Poland is to get compensation in the west; also that there is to be left for discussion with the Polish government before the line is drawn.
Molotov: Very good.
Prime Minister: We must go out now with the rest of our communiqué on Poland. (Matter is referred to the three foreign ministers.)
Stalin: That could be done during our intermission.
Eden: I shall next report on the declaration on liberated areas. Mr. Molotov kindly withdrew his amendment of last night with regard to the third from last paragraph but has proposed the following wording at the end of the penultimate paragraph. (There followed considerable discussion as to the exact wording that was agreed upon and finally Marshal Stalin accepted the following: “… shall consult together on the measures to discharge the joint responsibilities set forth in this declaration.” In this form it was approved.)
I should like to add a sentence with regard to the French which we proposed last evening to clear up the ambiguous situation in regard to France. (The following was approved: “In issuing this declaration the three powers express the hope that the Provisional Government of France will associate itself with them.”)
President: I should like to say that I have changed my mind with regard to the position of the French on the Control Council for Germany. The more I think of it the more I think that the Prime Minister is right and that a nation with a zone of occupation must sit in on the control machinery. I think it would be easier if France is on the commission to get de Gaulle to agree to join the liberated areas declaration and many other things.
Stalin: I have no objection. (It is agreed upon.)
Prime Minister: Of course France may say that she will have no part in the declaration and reserve all rights for the future. (laughing) We must face that.
Molotov: We must be ready to receive a rough answer.
Eden: Next is the question of Yugoslavia. We prepared a draft on this which is still under discussion. (After some discussion between the British and Russians a draft telegram to Yugoslavia is agreed upon. Copy attached.) Molotov insisted that the telegram should be short and should be sent today. The Prime Minister wanted the joint telegram to contain not only the exhortation that the Tito-Subasic agreement be put into effect immediately and the new united government formed but also the additional points which the new government would be asked to accept (Subasic recommendations). First that the Avnoj be extended to include members of the last Yugoslav Skupstina who have not compromised themselves, thus forming a body to be called a temporary parliament, and, two, that legislative acts passed by the Avnoj would be subject to ratification by a constituent assembly. The British also wanted a third provision to the effect that the government is only temporary pending the free expression of the will of the people but dropped this at the Russian request as offensive to Yugoslav sensibilities. On that basis the telegram was agreed upon by all three after considerable discussion by the Prime Minister and Stalin, the latter wanting originally to confine the telegram to the question of the execution of the Tito-Subasic agreement and await till the government was formed before taking up the other point.
There followed a lengthy and at times somewhat heated discussion between Marshal Stalin and Churchill on the question of reparations. This was the only time during the conference that Stalin showed some annoyance. He obviously felt suspicious of the British opposing Russian reparations as part of a program to build up a strong Germany. At one stage in the discussion, he asked point blank if the British did not want the Russians to receive reparations they should say so frankly. This of course Mr. Churchill emphatically denied. Stalin proposed that the three governments accept the principle of reparations in goods. (The President made it clear that what he feared was a system of reparations paid in money.) And second that the Moscow commission should be asked to find out the total or total possible reparations and report to the respective governments. He also asked that the three governments agree that Germany must pay in kind for losses suffered in the course of the war.
Molotov: We must give the Moscow commission on reparations the task of finding out the total of reparations to be paid, taking as a basis of discussion the American-Soviet formula. The commission need only take that as the basis.
Prime Minister: We have had a very important communication from our government on this question. We cannot accept any specific figures in any formula.
Stalin: I propose first that the three heads of government agree that Germany must pay compensation in kind for losses caused during the war. Two, the heads of the three governments agree that Germany must pay for losses to the allied nations. Three, the Moscow reparations commission is given the task to consider the amount to be paid. We bring our figures before the commission and you bring yours, (to Churchill)
(This was followed by an intermission during which the formula to be used on Polish frontiers for inclusion in the communiqué was largely worked out.)
President: Marshal Stalin said that he wanted to talk a little on some question after our intermission and I now invite him to do so.
Stalin: I should like to say a few words on the Montreux Convention. We believe that it is now out of date. The Japanese Emperor was one of the parties to it. In fact, he plays a greater role in it than the Soviet Union. The treaty was made at a time when relations between Britain and Russia were not very good. Now that is all changed. I do not think that Great Britain would with the help of the Japanese want to strangle Russia. Now the convention should be seriously modified. I do not wish to pre-judge future decisions. The interests of Russia should be taken into account and observed. The legitimate interests of Turkey must not be infringed. The question is how to do it. We can of course ask a certain organism to discuss this question. We have agreed that the three foreign ministers should meet from time to time. Perhaps they could discuss this question at their first meeting and report to the three governments. This would be a preparatory step to settling the question.
President: I only want to say that we have three thousand miles of natural boundary with Canada. There is no fort and no armed ship on this entire distance. If other parts of the world would do the same it would be a wonderful thing.
Prime Minister: Marshal Stalin mentioned this question to me and to Eden in Moscow. We viewed it with sympathy. We agreed with the Soviets that the Montreux Convention should be revised or reconstructed. We asked the Soviet Government for a note with their ideas. This has not yet been received. The suggestion of Marshal Stalin is a wise one. I certainly feel that the present position of Russia – her Black Sea dependent on the narrow exit – is not satisfactory. I hope our Russian allies will make their proposal. Meanwhile, if Turkey wanted to declare war we should tell her beforehand that this matter is to be brought under consideration. They should know that fact before going into the war. I believe we are obligated to tell them. (After conferring with Mr. Eden) Eden tells me that he did mention that matter to the Turkish ambassador in London in general terms following our Moscow visit, so we have kept our engagement. It is worth considering whether when changes are made some assurances should be given Turkey that her independence will not be affected.
Stalin: Certainly we should give such assurance. When the foreign ministers meet in April in the United States at the end of the conference could they not discuss the question of the straits?
Prime Minister: Well, I think this question affects Britain with her Mediterranean interests more than the United States. Therefore, I believe that the meeting should be in London.
I tried some time ago to get through the Dardanelles (smiling) and the former Russian government had two army corps ready to help me at the other end. However, we did not succeed in joining hands. I consequently have some feeling on this question.
Stalin: You were in too much of a hurry to take away your troops. Perhaps in another week you would have won as the Germans and Turks were getting ready to withdraw.
Prime Minister: I had nothing to do with that decision. I was already out of the government. (It was decided that the question would be discussed by the three foreign ministers in London.)
President: The only thing left now is the amended text on the frontiers of Poland. (The text is then read for consideration by the Russians who had received the Russian text.)
Stalin: I should like to suggest an amendment in the phraseology to indicate that Poland should receive the return of her ancient frontier of East Prussia and the Oder.
President: (Laughing to Prime Minister) Perhaps you would want us back?
Prime Minister: Well you might be as indigestible for us as it might be for the Poles if they took too much German territory.
Molotov: This change would give great encouragement to the Poles.
Prime Minister: I prefer to leave it as it is.
Molotov: But there is no mention of frontiers in the west. What about the Oder? No exchange was mentioned.
Prime Minister: Well, between what we propose and the question of specifying ancient territories up to the Oder there seems to be no stopping place.
Stalin: I withdraw my suggestion and agree to leave it as drawn. The President suggested changes (change “agreed” to “consider” in the first sentence and change “the three powers” to “the three heads of government” in the third sentence) are accepted. This I believe is our last point of decision.
President: There only remains the question of the communiqué I must leave tomorrow at 3 p.m. I hope we can get the communiqué done and I suggest that if we meet at eleven tomorrow we can finish it by lunch. (This suggestion is vigorously opposed by Churchill and to a lesser degree by Stalin, both of whom insist that the communiqué is most important and should not be drawn too hastily. The matter was left indefinite with the representatives of the three governments assigned the task of concluding their drafts – an American and British draft had already been prepared – for submission to the Big Three.)
The meeting then adjourned.