Hopkins-Eden-Menemencioğlu meeting, 6 p.m.
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Present |
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| United States |
United Kingdom |
Turkey |
| Mr. Hopkins |
Foreign Secretary Eden |
Foreign Minister Menemencioğlu |
| Mr. Steinhardt |
Sir Alexander Cadogan |
Mr. Açikalin |
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Sir Hughe Knatchbull-Hugessen |
Mr. Anderiman |
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General Wilson |
Mr. Kavur |
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Air Chief Marshal Douglas |
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Air Vice Marshal George |
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Brigadier Stayner |
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Mr. Helm |
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740.0011 EW 1939/12–2443
U.S.-U.K. agreed minutes
December 5, 1943, 6 p.m.
Most secret
Mr. Eden opened the meeting by suggesting that Air Marshal Sir Sholto Douglas should explain what was proposed since he had a feeling that the Turks were under a wrong impression.
Mr. Numan thanked Mr. Eden. He said he would be glad to listen. He must however make it clear that he could not commit himself on military matters which were the concern of the experts and on which he was not competent.
Sir Sholto Douglas said that he was not going to deal with technicalities. He was merely going to make a general exposé to show why we wanted advance infiltration. In this there were two main objects: the first to provide adequate defence for the most vulnerable points, and the second to provide a force for offensive operations in the Aegean. As regards the first, the vulnerable points were Istanbul, Izmir and Zonguldak. For these it was proposed to send in 17 squadrons (12 of them Spitfires) and 5 regiments of light and 5 of heavy anti-aircraft guns. For purposes of defence it was essential to have an adequate warning system and also adequate anti-aircraft defence for the air fields on which would depend the defence of Istanbul and other vulnerable places. Until these essentials had been secured it would not be feasible to introduce the necessary squadrons. This brought the Air Marshal to infiltration and his proposals were:
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For radio location and operations room – 200-250 specialists and 20-30 vehicles.
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Signals personnel for radio location and for linking airfields with operations room – 400 persons.
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Key specialist personnel of anti-aircraft guns – 420 persons.
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Additional personnel for radio location, i.e., for extension of system round the coast from Zonguldak to Antalya – 300 persons.
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Administrative personnel for dumps, etc. – 500 persons.
This represented a total of about 2,000 personnel.
The introduction of this personnel was the problem. Until something like this had been introduced Turkey would not be in a position of security when the moment of need came.
Mr. Eden remarked that when all this personnel had been brought in the squadrons could be flown in in 24 hours for the defence of Turkey if Turkey were attacked. The complete effectiveness of defence would of course also be dependent on Turkey doing her share as promised with personnel for the anti-aircraft guns. It was as a result of the promise of this personnel that the estimated infiltration needs had been reduced from 7,000 to 2,000. Thus it could be seen what were the indispensable minimum needs to be introduced during the period of preparation.
Mr. Numan said that he took the infiltration to be part of the general minimum plan. He could not say whether the number of squadrons was adequate, though it sounded good. He obviously must however make a reservation on the question of their utility.
Mr. Eden stressed that in our opinion what Sir Sholto Douglas had explained was the minimum necessary for Turkey’s protection. In addition we should of course be ready to specify the material which we should be prepared to supply for use by the Turks themselves.
Mr. Numan remarked that matters were advancing. There was not an impasse. The arrival of foreigners was very important. Even a civilian arriving in Turkey to serve would be known to Germany and the latter would not be indifferent. He did not want to provoke the Germans before a certain degree of preparation could be achieved. Mr. Churchill had described this as a vicious circle. He (Mr. Numan) did not agree but saw the problem from a different point of view. He was ready to accept the requisite number of technicians for the material supplied. How many technicians these might be he did not know. That would be a matter for the Turkish General Staff. He could not however accept personnel additional to the proper complement of technicians.
Mr. Eden remarked that the Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs must have confidence. There surely could be no question of our wanting to introduce one single specialist more than was necessary. But how could the Turkish General Staff say whether particular personnel was necessary or not? During the preparatory period we did not wish to rush things any more than the Turks did. But we did want to get the preparations completed quickly.
Mr. Numan said that the Turks had the same object. They did not wish to provoke the Germans. He could not agree to the introduction of personnel but he did agree to the introduction of technicians, though he must make a reserve regarding the number of these. What he had said amounted to an acceptance in principle of technicians for the material promised.
Mr. Hopkins remarked that President Inönü had several times spoken of Turkey’s minimum defence requirements. He wondered if he was right in assuming that this did not refer to infiltration and air material but to other needs. He assumed that the British had been discussing such questions with the Turkish General Staff. Had the British any idea of Turkish minimum requirements? Did they, for instance, include anti-aircraft guns and aircraft? This brought up the question of the commitments to be made and he realized that it was necessary to get personnel introduced in advance. But he wished to be clear in his own mind about the details.
Mr. Eden thought this was a good question. It seemed to him that there were two points—the material to be used by us in order to give protection to Turkey, and the material to be given to Turkey for use by the Turks themselves.
Mr. Hopkins mentioned that there was also the Anglo-American force to go into Turkey in the event of war.
Mr. Eden said that in the first instance this was air alone – anti-aircraft.
Mr. Numan said he wished to make an observation and to compare what Turkey had got with what she had asked for. After the Adana Conference the Turks had prepared a list of requirements which had been more or less discussed. Later the British had entered into a definite commitment for delivery on the basis of that list. The Turkish list had remained a dead letter. The British list had not been much better (Mr. Eden said that he could not agree). Mr. Numan went on to say that only some 4% of the items on the general list had been delivered to Turkey. He did not wish to make reproaches. He would only state facts and mentioned in particular the case of lorries of which 300 a month had been promised. For some time deliveries had been about 160 or 180 a month. In recent months there had been no deliveries at all. Deliveries did in fact represent a very small proportion of promises.
Mr. Eden said that he could not accept Mr. Numan’s figures. He must make it plain that the position was not the position as it had been at Adana and he personally would not consider recommending his Government now to supply to Turkey all of the material which had been discussed at Adana.
Mr. Numan remarked that his had only been an observation.
General Wilson said that even if it had been possible to supply all the items on the Turkish Adana lists, it would have taken the Turkish railways three years to carry them. As it was, Turkey had since Adana been supplied with 350 tanks, 48 self-propelled guns, nearly 300 anti-aircraft guns (over 100 of them heavy) 300 field and medium guns, 200 mortars, rather less than 500 anti-tank guns, an enormous quantity (about 99,000) of various guns and automatics, 420 mortars, and about one million anti-tank mines for the defence of Turkey. It was unfortunately true that there had been a shortage of delivery on motor transport. This had happened because the transport did not exist in the Eastern Mediterranean. The Turks had however said at Adana that they had enough to defend themselves except for three anti-tank units and aviation support.
Mr. Hopkins expressed surprise at the extent of material assistance already given since Adana. He wished however to clear the position up. As he understood things, the Allies had agreed, in the event of war, to put in air squadrons and anti-aircraft guns and personnel. How far removed were we from President Inönü’s minimum requirements in the event of war?
Mr. Numan said that if it were desired to negotiate on the basis of these past figures, he also could cite figures. At one moment 40 air squadrons had been promised in the event of war. This had been reduced by half. The percentage of deliveries was not impressive. As for circumstances he agreed that they had changed since Adana, but things had turned out exactly as they had been foreseen at Adana.
Mr. Hopkins said it seemed necessary to get to grips with the problem. Was he to understand that the Turkish President considered he should have twice the air force suggested? Was he to understand that the anti-tank preparation was not enough? Were the Turkish railways a limiting factor, insofar as concerned Turkey coming into the war? He asked because if Turkey was not coming into the war, she must understand that these munitions, so vitally required elsewhere, would not come into Turkey at all.
Mr. Numan remarked that there must be some misunderstanding. The position had been quite clearly stated. The President had announced his intention of coming into the war. The question of material had however always been a serious one. At the time when the Anglo-Turkish Alliance was negotiated there had at first been a clause which postponed the operation of the Alliance until supplies were provided. He had realized that the supplies could not be provided and the clause had been suppressed. Since then and until now supplies had still not been available. Today Turkey lacked everything. Not only anti-aircraft guns and tanks but every sort of war material. He did not suggest that the Adana lists or any other list or anything like either of them should be supplied. He did however think that there ought to be a list of reasonable requirements. The Turks would not ask the impossible and with a maximum effort a list could readily be drawn up.
Mr. Eden said we had given the list of all that we wished to introduce for the defence of Turkey. If this were agreed we could then fix up what we could provide for use by the Turks. But we did not want the preparation of defence to be delayed during the consideration of the second list.
Mr. Numan said he agreed but that it must be part of a general plan in which the air preparations would of course take complete precedence. Mr. Eden enquired what general plan? Mr. Numan answered that it was necessary to decide the minimum requirements of Turkey if she were to enter the war. A list would be necessary.
Mr. Hopkins said he understood that the limiting factor was motor transport. Was it a limiting factor for anti-aircraft personnel? There had been talk of years for the introduction of requirements. We were dealing in weeks.
Mr. Numan pointed to General Wilson’s statement that two or three years would have been necessary to introduce the items on the Adana lists. Had one-third of these been introduced in the year since Adana?
Sir H. Knatchbull-Hugessen suggested that we were all wasting our time in discussing the past. It was a wasted effort. In the interval everything had changed and it would be a waste of transport even to send to Turkey today the material contemplated at Adana. Surely, we should look at the future and not at the past.
Mr. Numan welcomed the Ambassador’s interjection and said he quite agreed. He wanted to propose something practical. Could we not at once send to Angora the two Generals (one British and one American) proposed by President Roosevelt so that they could concert at once with the Turkish General Staff and establish a list of requirements and work out complete collaboration.
Mr. Eden said that this was something apart from the fundamental question. We had this afternoon given to our Turkish friends a list of what we thought necessary for the defence of Turkey against attack. This must be the basis of working. In addition, we could discuss further material but he could not accept the delay involved in the addition of other material quite unknown.
Mr. Numan said that the President had answered Mr. Eden’s point. He said that 2,000 men and 600 vehicles were not enough for the defence of Turkey though they were no doubt enough for the defence of British air bases.
Mr. Eden pointed out that they were not for the defence of British air bases but for that of Istanbul, Izmir and Zonguldak.
Mr. Numan remarked that the Turks could not contemplate Turkish defence being entrusted to the British. What they would and did contemplate was the defence of Turkey by the Turks with British help.
Air Marshal Sir Sholto Douglas pointed out that air defence depended essentially on fighters and this must be defended by antiaircraft guns. The first essential was to get the fighter defence established.
Mr. Eden said that there were two points. The first, what we introduced for the security of Turkey and the second the other things which the Turks must have before Turkey could take action.
General Wilson explained that what had been mentioned hitherto was for Turkish defence. It was only an advance guard. Actually the total force contemplated would be 32,000 troops (11,600 of them air), and 6,000 guns and vehicles (375 guns representing 5 light and 5 heavy anti-aircraft regiments).
Mr. Eden said the urgent plan was one for immediate defence and the execution of this represented the dangerous period.
Mr. Numan having remarked that he could not comment on these figures, Sir H. Knatchbull-Hugessen pointed out that as men and material were introduced, the danger to Turkey would be correspondingly diminished. The first problem was to ensure safety and then to build up.
Mr. Numan said Turkey was coming into the war. It was necessary to draw up a plan of preparation and a plan of collaboration and at the same time to take up political matters in another direction.
Mr. Hopkins having remarked that reinforcement would be limited by transport facilities and that as regards priority for air we already give the Turks what they can take, said he must come to the main point. The war had reached a critical stage. It was impossible to divert to a neutral country war material which was not to be used against Germany. The British Prime Minister had been authorized to express the hope of the United States and of Russia that Turkey would enter the war at an early date. We know that when a nation went to war with Germany she might suffer losses – the United Kingdom, Russia and the United States had suffered severe losses. He knew that Turkey wanted to enter the war. In the last analysis a country went to war in its own interests. We wanted Turkey in the war even if she could not have all she wanted. Great Britain, Russia and the United States had not all they wanted when they entered the war. At this critical period in the war the entry of Turkey might save the lives of hundreds of thousands of Allied nationals. January 1st was not a set date but Turkish participation might not be useful after very long after that date. We wanted Turkey to enter the war willingly and whole-heartedly. We should like Turkey to enter the war about February even though we knew that in doing so Turkey might suffer. We hoped Turkey would enter because all Allied military and political opinion considered that her entry would shorten the war. Only the Turks themselves could speak for Turkish self-interest. If however discussions were prolonged about the adequacy of material etc. Turkey’s entry would be futile. Turkey could be sure that if she came in we would do everything we could – all possible military and air support would be afforded her. He knew he was correctly interpreting President Roosevelt when he said that he hoped that Turkey would in her own interests come in willingly and wholeheartedly.
Mr. Eden said that he wished to have the Turkish position correctly understood and Mr. Numan confirmed that it was as follows:
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Our proposals for infiltration were accepted in principle but Mr. Numan made a reservation as regards numbers pending consideration by the Turkish General Staff.
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If the programme involving infiltration were accepted Turkey will not take action which she considers might lead her into a state of war with Germany until material and supplies for her use have been given, and the figures of these yet remain to be determined.
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Mr. Eden understood that Turkey had political questions to raise. He did not know what these were.
As regards (3) Mr. Numan referred to the Russian undertaking regarding Bulgaria. He thought that this was the sort of point which he would like to discuss with the Russians. There were other points which he would also like to discuss. But these discussions could take place during the period of preparation and would in no way delay either preparation or collaboration.
Mr. Eden enquired whether there were any other points to be put down.
Mr. Numan said that Mr. Hopkins had spoken of willing entry. This was also the desire of the Turks. They must however have a minimum of essential preparations. Moreover, this was a commitment to the Turkish people and to the Party.
Mr. Eden enquired what Turkey wanted under (2). Was it not possible for these requirements to be stated without discussions at Angora?
Mr. Numan repeated that he was not competent to say what the military needs were. All he asked for was comprehension. It lay in our hands to determine when Turkey could enter the war since this would be determined by the supply of the necessary material.
Mr. Numan confirmed that, as he had previously said, the infiltration programme under (1) above could go ahead while the discussion of (2) was in progress.
At this stage (8:15 p.m.) the meeting was adjourned.