Regarding your question you really, in my humble opinion, take of the lid of a stinky bin in which is a very complicated and interesting issue on how much or how little the US government really was aware of the pending Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.
There are a number of facts that imply that the US were thouroughly aware that an attack was imminent, both through confirmed intelligence from their own department and also by, you could say, 'common sense '.
Roosevelt was very much aware of the public opinion of isolationism and I believe that he intentionally chose to stay on the ridged path of restrictions and boycot towards Japan to both isolate and agrivate the Japanese so he would have a pretext, as surely the Japanese would directly attack the USA in the region, eventually insurging the USA into ww2, finally giving Roosevelt the opportunity to support the UK and also getting his idea of becoming a major power within the United Nations, which eventually was successful.
So, I think they knew and they also where not very surprised or concerned and even more in a way, despite of the terrible losses (never forget) relieved that they finally could join the war, as the industry was already fully geared up
I suspect my opinion might meet some questions or opposition but that is fine by me!
Greetings, Harry Janssens
Intelligence being murky was precisely the reason why I think Kimmel and Short were undeserving of their punishments.
Having read nearly every available record on Pearl Harbor, I still can’t figure out how Manila’s chances over Pearl Harbor is still a point of debate. Still, Kimmel did the best he could to beef up Hawaiian defenses.
I agree with you on all you say, my friend (if I may be so bold to assume you feel the same way😉), my major point is that the Roosevelt government was deliberately (a word he himself used in his famous speech) and intentionally going on a collision course to envoke war.
Whether Hawai, Wake, Midway or, the obvious, the Philippines would be the first target, I believe, is not so much to the point. As we saw lately in those wonderful episodes of ww2 IRT, Japan had their moment of Blitzkrieg and were all over SE Asia
Yep, you hit the nail right on the money, so because Roosevelt wanted to help Churchill defeating the Germans you also see the ‘Germany first’ clause comming into action right about end december 1941. These were all underlaying motives to get the US into the war. Public opinion would, by that time, not condone a war on Germany, just because some ships were sunk and a major ally was in mortal danger, however, a direct attack by any of the Axis powers would be, ironically as it may seem, a blessing in disguise for FDR!
I fully agree with you that both Kimmel and Short were being judged much to harshly and I really feel for them, especially Kimmel, when you consider the appalling treatment he (imho) wrongfully recieved.
You are very much welcome and I commend you on that effort for redemption which they both absolutely deserve!
In hindsight and of of the comfy couch it is so easy to be critical or indifferent, which is why I joined the Timeghost Army and very much appreciate the way that fellow armymembers like you, respectfully converse and also can agree to disagree.
As far as I am concerned, this new place, the Timeghost Army, is already really feeling like home. I look forward to discuss a lot more in the near future.
I’ve listened to the argument for most of my adult life-‘Washington saw Pearl Harbor coming and let it happen’ H Norman Schwartzkopf may have said it best: In an era before satellite images, GPS and global instant communication, it was the commanders in the field that made the difference whether surprise attack was successful or detected and thwarted. The best Washington could do in 1941 is make the local commanders aware of the diplomatic circumstances and ask them to be ready for war. If they failed, they are held accountable.
Notices were issued to all US bases in the Pacific in late November.
The notice from Washington to Peal Harbor of November 27, 1941, to Admiral Kimmel, began, “This dispatch is to be considered a war warning.” It then went on to say that negotiations had ceased. Then directed the admiral to “execute an appropriate defensive deployment.” Kimmel was ordered to undertake reconnaissance and any other measures he deemed necessary. In addition, a communication to General Short the same day declared that hostile action was possible at any moment. He was also urged measures of reconnaissance.
The warning has not adequately heeded and no one could have predicted the catastrophic event that motivated a nation for total war. When 2000 soldiers die in a peace time attack, on Dec 8, the buck had to stop at those field commanders, rightly or wrongly as we gauge the topic 80 years on. Although we can say, probably not fair as we all know, how the Navy didn’t have enough PBY’s, etc. etc.
One thing for sure, you can’t look at those warnings with a 1941 mindset and assert that Roosevelt was malicious on the matter and could have possibly intended to orchestrated the outcome.
I agree on your analysis that we very much need to keep in mind that the level of technology and intelligence was very different back then. However I do believe that FDR had a double agenda because of his own feelings concerning the morality of the Axis forces and their inhumanity. Also, in my humble opinion, I think he wanted to get the USA more involved in world politics because of economical opportunities and he, I suspect, foresaw the threat of a growing power in the east that could eventually threaten not only the USA but the whole world. His own New Deal was failing so it’s his way out, I guess.
A surprise attack on Dec 7 and the massive losses at Peal Harbor traumatized and motivated the US citizens and Govt. to end the aggressive Empire of Japan unconditionally-FDR simply could not have planned that.
I can understand why such a dastardly act that backfire so completely, could be contemplated many years later as an internal ploy in which FDR was active. In the end, the US had significant political influence and a robust economy. However the gent that struggled with his own congress and New Deal was not the architect of that ‘grand strategy’. Evidence of such a pre-planned masterstroke has remained illusive all these years.
As always I very much appreciate your contribution to any discussion.
I really do believe that FDR not only was aware of the risks he was taking by isolating Japan staying put on sanctions and supporting the UK where he could to break loose of his own isolationist Americans and create a perfect pretext to get involved in a war which he so desperately needed to realise his ideas on getting US leadership within the United Nations, though not yet founded but surely his mind was set on this!
