Japan did not surrender because of the atombombing but because of the Soviet Blitzkrieg on Mantsjukwo

Well Actually 3 things happened which caused Japan to surrender (the most direct things) 1 was they atomic bomb and the Japanese knew about the E equals MC square equation. The Soviet invasion came later and then there was the coup of the military that failed.

The problem with history is that we cannot really replay by taking away 1 of the 3 and go back to 1945 and see what happens. Which makes it a lot harder than e.g. make a different nuke and see if it explodes. Historians can’t really redo the steps.

We know that Japan at the time was deeply religious and was hoping for a repeat for of the 13th century invasion attempts (which failed). Also they had a deep fear of being colonized like the rest of the Far East AND pursued a in my view understandable strategy of making any invasion prohibitively expensive. The US forces suffered massively as well in Okinawa, Saipan and Iwo Jima and and invasion would be very difficult. The United States/UK were the ones with excellent naval power.

So the Soviets could invade Manchuria but I wonder whether they could have successfully invaded Japan. Some historians point out that they took Sakhalin but that was AFTER the surrender. Had the Soviets or US/UK +Allies suffered a failed attempt one can wonder whether a peace without invasion would be an option. Note everyone in the US and UK was interested in a war which could last until 1948 leading to many thousands additional coffins while massive amounts of resources went to rebuilding Europe and “the colonies”. The latter was a big priority and the decolonization was already starting.

The arrival of the atomic bomb was a science fiction weapon of enormous power. It was slated to use as a tactical weapon which could lead to massive instant deaths and radiation poisoning. Suddenly the US had a wonderweapon and it was unlikely that they would have been demoralized.

Here is an excerpt of the speech of Hiro-Hito, sadly many writers sum up the horrors of the bombs yet just plainly “forget” to write about the speech. The way the US forces had been slaughtering Japanese military and also civilians in 1945 makes the speech below understandable.

Excerpt on the bomb, link to full speech below
"Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, nor to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our imperial ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire toward the emancipation of East Asia."

Speech by Emperor Hirohito accepting the Terms of Surrender, 14 August 1945 (mtholyoke.edu)

Finally just to be clear, the Soviets did help massively to defeat Nazi Germany as well a many smaller countries. Also to be fair the Japanese don’t give any context on why the bombs were dropped and portray themselves as the liberators of Asia which in a sense is true because they did trigger the decolonization and are right to ask the question “What were the Dutch/British/French doing in my neck of the woods”. I know Dutch history likes to concentrate on the Japanese crimes but is a lot less forthcoming about the horrors in Indonesia, Suriname, India and etc etc. Had I been Japanese I would have supported kicking the Westerners out of Asia, their museums were a big eye-opener for me.

3 Likes

Many thanks, Chewbacca, for your extensive reply and your quote on Hirohito.
As you rightly point out, there never, or at least, rarely is only one right answer for any of these complex issues. This was my main reason to open up this discussion and get some sound and refreshing points of view on the matter, which you surely provided by your, much appreciated contribution.
Being Dutch myself, I am very much ashamed of what has been done to all people during all those ages of suppression and colonization. As Timeghost already have made a very good coverage on the ‘politionele acties’ I am confident that this forum and community is on the right track to ‘never forget’
Thank you again!

2 Likes

You are welcome, indeed there are always multiple causes. I can’t see why some people want to narrow it down to one cause. E.g. when I bought my house, said yes to a job I did have multiple advantages and disadvantages to consider. For the people involved in those decisions it must have been wildly complex knowing that many people including themselves were at the risk of losing their lives. Like today they probably also often listened to experts. (OK I shouldn’t mention Covid but it is kind of a war against a virus with hard decisions whatever we think).

2 Likes

“.‘politionele acties’ I am confident that this forum and community is on the right track to ‘never forget’”

Politionele actions, like it was just a “police kind of action to arrest the criminals” exactly describes how the mess in Indonesia has been minimized. It seemed more like a continuous war in Atjeh and putting up the locals against each other. When I was young there still was the “nostalgic view” of Indonesia (well there still is). One of the things that horrified me were the tourist guides of the thirties with pictures of barebreasted local women. It is not hard to see the subtext there. I don’t believe in “inherited guilt” but a lot of Dutch people are still very unaware how Indonesians feel about Dutch politicians who lecture them on environmental issues etc. Or just plainly are unaware that “we” were in India as well. Actually I always get good feedback when I show my knowledge of our darker history.

What I like about Timeghost TV is that they really, really do their absolute best to tell about the horrors. And I learned a log of new stuff from the Indonesia episodes.

I wish we had more people from India/Japan and other places on this forum. I am trying to spread the word though. This series is monumental.

Best Regards,
Marc /Chewie :wink:

2 Likes

Although your reply is beside the point of this topic, I couldn’t agree with you more, Marc.
I appreciate and share your enthusiasm for the opportunity Timeghost gives us to actually discuss issues that are most important to try and work on world peace and mutual respect and understanding.

2 Likes

I appreciate all the points made here. Might have to keep them in mind for my America at war! thread in 1945 :wink:

3 Likes

Norman, you just made my day! I am really stoked that we can contribute to your content!
I appreciate you and all the Timeghost Army very much!:kissing_heart::+1:

2 Likes

Thank you! :slight_smile: Check out that thread to see more on America’s involvement and how the media at large covered the war.

It’s just that I just got demoted again (thanks stupid trust system) so I’m in a bit of a lull regarding the updates on the America at war! thread. The reason I create wikis of the posts is because I want to edit them long after the post is written.

@avalantis A little help?

3 Likes

That’s history for you, before you know it you are part of it :wink:

2 Likes

That’s a good thing to say. The more I covered the war in 1941-42, the more I realized the similarities in news coverage to the coverage of the War on Terror in 2001-02. Pretty interesting, ain’t it?

2 Likes

I sense kindered spirits, I guess
:+1::pray::wink:

2 Likes

Nice! :smile: Make sure to go through that thread and please note, most of the articles are incomplete so would you mind helping me out by editing them? I have the newspapers written in the first posts of certain days (Check out the Pittsburgh Press archive on Google)

1 Like

My friend, you’ll get nothing substantial from that dreck. Even my college professor, a Stone fan, shredded it to pieces back in the day.

1 Like

I will ask Spartacus

3 Likes

Make sure to give an officer’s rank if this hassle continues

3 Likes

You can have my leader rank, you deserve it! Note: I already chewed up all the cookies in the officers lounge :bear::joy:

2 Likes

Oh thanks. :slight_smile: Still haven’t received my wiki abilities back tho.

2 Likes

I would take issue with your claim that I’ll “get nothing substantial from that dreck.” I never gave an opinion about the Oliver Stone series as a whole. I simply referenced it as the original source I encountered to the topic at hand. So, my friend, from that point, I would argue that I did get something substantial from it.

2 Likes

Oh I see. It’s just I personally don’t consider Stone to be a reliable source, I’m sorry.

2 Likes

Hello Harry,

What you are suggesting here is born out by official documents from the Japanese Imperial Archives. Despite what we have been told, the atomic weapons used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not what forced the hand of the Japanese. Frankly the firebombing of Tokyo had been more destructive of life and material than either nuclear weapon. In their own words, the Japanese high command feared invasion by the USSR and the subsequent execution of the Emperor and the eternal shame of the nation of Japan as a result. (One might also suppose that the USSR seemed the greater of the various evils). Soviet attacks in Manchuria unilaterally overwhelmed the best remaining troops in Japan’s Army within a fortnight. Soviet operations on Sakhalin and the Kuriles were also rapidly successful, and in the case of Sakhalin continued after the official Japanese surrender, much to the annoyance of the Russians. While the Western Allies like to point to the use of nuclear weapons as the knock-out blow, this was not the thinking of the Japanese in their own documents.

3 Likes