Air Force Commanders like Air Minister Archibald Sinclair, Sir Arthur Harris and others indeed did not have the level of knowledge of today (2020?). Is that a real argument? I must disappoint you but I don’t have the Corona knowledge as people will understand it in 2095 (and you/everyone doesn’t either)! Also the holocaust was ongoing at the time so logically they could not know to the lever we know today.
I want to stop this, arguing with you is like hitting a wall. You refuse to acknowledge any of the good points I make and then you shift the argument over to something else entirely.
Is that a real argument? I must disappoint you but I don’t have the Corona knowledge as people will understand it in 2095 (and you/everyone doesn’t either)! Also the holocaust was ongoing at the time so logically they could not know to the lever we know today.
You have effectively missed my entire point. I was not judging the Air Force Commanders for not knowing about the Holocaust, I was simply stating that because they didn’t know about it to the extent that we do today, that it didn’t factor into their decision making process. There’s no blame here for that, I am not accusing anyone of not being able to see the future. The fact that they COULDN’T predict the future means that there was no way they could have possibly known that their bombing of German cities was going to have any effect on the Holocaust.
Im not sure if my English is just not getting through to you or what but you keep changing the argument on me so allow me to about face. I am going to say this as simply as possible so that you understand this.
The fact that the air force commanders who were responsible for making decisions on bombing German cities, including other cities besides Dresden, did not factor stopping the holocaust or delaying it into their combat plans means that delaying the Holocaust and saving Jewish lives cannot be used as a defense of the bombing. It was a secondary effect at best, a positive one to be sure, but something that did not factor into the decision making process.
So do you any Actual PROOF that the Air Force commanders didn’t know about the holocaust or not enough for your taste?
Not enough for my liking. Nowhere have I ever seen Harris or Archibald use the holocaust as a defense for their strategic bombing decisions. Harris at least just seemed to figure it was worth the risk if it meant saving a few more British Soldiers. Which I think is pretty weak justification for killing 22,000 people.
And to reiterate, in the words of Max Hastings himself who is a laudable historian whose books are used as source material for this very show.
“by February 1945, attacks upon German cities had become largely irrelevant to the outcome of the war”
Max Hastings, Bomber Command, pages 171-172
I think that ultimately the Allies won the war, and that that was the best possible outcome, and that Nazi Germany needed to be put down permanently. You claim that they were making hard decisions to win the war. I argue that the war was already more or less won, anyone with a brain could see it, and that continuing with mass area bombing was unnecessary. I dont think it was a war crime, and Im not nearly braindead enough to argue that it makes the Allies as bad as the Nazis. They were very obviously the side that’s victory ended one of the most evil regimes in history.
The Yalta conference was held in early February 1954, where the Allies and the Soviets agreed on how to restructure Europe after the war was won. They were already two steps ahead of the end of the war in Europe.
Well, the term “argument” can have a negative connotation. Which might be the reason you were scolding Jean-Marc earler. And as for my English, it is not perfect but “asshat” was indeed a new word for me. That is why I sent you a PM to take it verbal?
Lets call it an exchange of information to get nearer to the truth, ok! Thanks for your simplification as you seem to think my English is insufficent. In my view it wasn’t necessary.
As for your repeated calls to stop, well you can stop the discussion ANYTIME by foregoing a reply. If you make statements that are simply untrue or a logical fallacy expect a reply in a forum. By the way you wrote a lot of text but did not go into my question for sources on below.
This is a statement of fact which is simply dead wrong AND you changed your opinion ending in the viewpoint that basically said the Air Force commanders knew less than today.
Also I am pretty sure it is not my English skills which are the reason for disagreeing with below (with sources)
Some points:
1 Max Hastings is a great writer but not a source of 100% absulute truth. Notably also because it was written in 1979 when there still was an East Germany and not all sources were available or just plain wrong (like the Devils Tinderbox).
2 Newer works Frederick Taylor, Dresden 2004 did benefit from the increased available knowledge such as the miltary benefits and it argues respectfully against some of the Hastings points.
3 The outcome of the war (Germany Lost/Allies Won was clear way before that), even Von Rundsted statted that after the defeat in Normandy. However that doesn’t mean te war didn’t go on and Germany kept fighting after the defeat was inevitable.
4 The fact that Indy uses this as a source on this show doesn’t make it undisputable. Indy tells people to do their own research and in my experience is open to other arguments.
So the outcome of the war (Germany lost) was set in stone. The question is how long and wiping out factories and a logistic hub very likely helped. I thus think we agree, it is just that there is a lot of other stuff that Hastings wrote at the time that is now up for debate!
NOTE: THE ALLIES KNEW ABOUT AUSCHWITZ AND THERE IS PRIME EVIDENCE IT PLAYED A ROLE:. Just let me know if you have sources which counter this prime evidence.
This is SIMPLY NOT TRUE, the communication says something I posted this already in the out of the foxhole questions but again. The holocaust DID play a part in the bombing campaign, Dresden was a mission and a part of the larger campaign so don’t expect the holocaust to come up on Navigation points/targets/Weight and Balance calculations and the formation coordination, etc etc.
Source: Henryk Świebocki " The Issue of Bombing Auschwitz" [in:] Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp, vol. IV "