The valiant Defenders of Ukraine

They could have just implemented Minsk Agreements and UNSC resolution

Anyone who has ever met him and got to know him says that he is uncorruptable, intelligent and dedicated to his country and people.
Everything else is simple hatred for him and Russians in general.

Yes, but the Abrams should not been send to Uktaine. There are very good Leos which can made aviable.
It is a political decission, not a they are “not avaiable” thing. And my evaluation is based on numbers pre war.

I don’t disagree but your govt says no Leopards without Abrams so it’s a political football.

They have made 3500 Leopards. And yet only a few dozen can be available? I wonder if The German government just wishes the whole question went away. They didn’t agree to send Marders until at the same time the US sent Bradley’s. It’s almost like Germany doesn’t want to lead.


NATO desire for break-up of Russia are not new. Operation “Unthinkable” was on the cards before WWII ended. NATO was formed for that purpose. Soviets were under threats and sanctions for all of their existence.

At the end of Cold War Russians, together with the most of the world hoped for period of collaboration for the sake of mutual progress. US had opportunity to, as a sole superpower, lead the world. It decided to rule it instead.

Then came “Wolfowitz Doctrine” of US domination and protection of US interests around the globe. Followed by Brzeziński’s The Grand Chessboard, it sealed direction of US-Russia relationship. Brzeziński’s son was ambassador to Sweden and now to Poland - how convenient.

China and Russia have no desire for territorial expansion. Not over each other nor elsewhere. They are mature world powers who know trappings of expansion. They have nothing to gain in confrontation or undermining each other. Much to gain in collaboration.

The rest of the world is by now very familiar with Anglo propaganda machinery. It doesn’t work any more, doesn’t have same effects, irrespective how many times you repeat it. Too may lies, fakery, false flags. We know who did brutal aggression, regime changes, ruining lives for generations.

Civil war in Ukraine was fostered by collective West for a long time - part of undermining Soviets. They couldn’t care less about Ukrainian or Russian or any other Slavic people. Their aim is to destroy Russia as a strongest opponent. Sadly, Ukrainians are made to do their bidding.

As what belongs to whom, I don’t think it belongs to anyone else than those who live there and have landownership titles.

Germany has left less then 300 Leo 2. So the Leos Ukraine needs will not come from Germany alone. And no, the idea M1 first was not German goverment but German press. But “the German goverment is not stupid or evil” makes no headlines in international media.

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Yes, if only Russia would have adhered to the Minsk agreements. Case and point: From the 7 October 2015 OSCE report:

The SMM patrol with Hug attempted to reach the international border but was prevented from proceeding by “LPR” “border guards”.

Heavy weapons, however, remained ever-present, constituting a risk of escalation

Also, there’s the battle of Debaltseve which continued to be fought after the ceasefire was signed to go in effect. If anything, both the Minsk accords were null and void the very day they were signed as Russia and the separatist forces have never showned any intentions to adhere to it.

Also, perhaps Serbia should have adhered to UNSC resolution 1244

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No," Everything else is simple hatred for him and Russians in general." Beeing German hating nazis is a good thing, hating Russians in general is racism.


It’s almost funny how much you are projecting here. I switched a few adjectives around and it was still surprisingly accurate:

Sadly, I would not agree with the statement about Putin’s propaganda machinery. It turns out a lot of lying is surprisingly effective at making people doubt the truth.

Countering Russian Disinformation - Center for Strategic and International Studies

Russian disinformation finds fertile ground in the West - Dep. Journalism Studies, the University of Sheffield, UK, published in Nature magazine

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Good news, no junk but leo2 A6:

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Yep A6 is a very nice thing. Grats to the German government. Yes they were pressured but they did the right thing. The US is almost certain to send Abrams as well. It’s the political thing to do even if they are as much a hassle as a benefit. If we really wanted to help, send a squadron of F-18’s. But we will get there eventually.

Does anybody know what the German defense industry can produce in terms of numbers? Like how many Marders and Leopards would they be able to produce to refill NATO stockpiles/send to Ukraine?

Zero Marders, Pumas are built or not because of a scandal…

And to the real numbers of production, the public who are in the need to know is a selected number of members of parlament.

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Currently Germany makes two leopard 2 tanks per month to fulfil current orders to other nations.

If they were to go into full production this is unknown due to many different companies in Germany produce parts for the Leopard 2s with each company being a potential bottleneck to production.

It is thought that enough parts can be supplied to make up to Six Leopard 2s per month but again it depends on supply chain issues and if it were to go to war time production that is the biggest unknown.

That’s not really a ton if you compare this to the number of tanks needed by the Ukrainian military and the replacement rate for its older tanks.

Probably a similar problem for the Marder’s though as they will probably want to have a few Puma’s to replace them first.

The only country with really significant numbers of stockpiled hardware here is the US then, who could still easily miss a couple 1000 tanks and IFV’s

Someone a lot smarter than me crunched numbers last month and came up with a number for western replacement tanks needed to replace soviet era tanks in the Ukrainian military.

To replace every Soviet era tank within a given time frame of say 2 years with the Leopard 2 tank that Ukraine had before the war which was roughly 1000 tanks 42 leopard tanks would have to be delivered every month for 2 years to replace Ukraine’s fleet. Unfortunately that is a likely unrealistic figure for production.

A more realistic scenario would be replacing Ukraines tank fleet in 7 years would entail 11 leopard 2 tanks being delivered every month over 84 months or 7 years.

replacing all the Soviet tanks is not realistic and that is something they can look at in the future after the fighting is over and the country rebuild.
Russia will probably report all the new equipment has been destroyed several times over before the first one gets to Ukraine.
When they do kill one and there will be tanks lost Russia will milk it for all they can.

And KMW is the main upgrader, producer, refurbisher and manufacturer of not only the all Leopard 1 and 2 based vehicels but also the PzH 2000, Puma and upgrade only Marder. But this problem is known and the solving may be a work in progress. And there has been an additional production line for the E variant of the A6 in Spain. In mid december KMW has opened a service center in Slovakia for KMW and Nexter products.

I think this is why Poland has the right idea. Working with South Korea and building the industry to produce their own tanks. Well really modify their old industry.

As to replacing Ukrainian tanks, while Germany is doing that, where are the tanks for their own needs? Hard to have a big rearmament plan when all your capacity goes elsewhere.

Finally there will be Abrams sent to Ukraine but I doubt they will be ready much before 2024. Too much infrastructure needs to be created from the sounds of it. Do they need Abrams? Nah Leopards will be better for them but politics will demand the Abrams.

Makes you wonder how the US army would fare getting to Eastern Europe.

Edited to Add that Biden approved sending 31 Abrams tanks and 8 M88 recovery vehicles to Ukraine and the Pentagon is working on Fuel and maintenance requirements.

They say the are sending new M1A1’s to Ukraine. Makes no sense then as it should be M1A2’s. Not sure if they would include the Sep3 upgrades but not even sure what all the upgrades are. We are also sending about 500 other vehicles of various types. We have already sent 1700 vehicles, mostly humvees but either way that’s a shit ton of fuel requirements.

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Actualy the German needs is to have a single division ready for NATO for world wide use next year, and a brigade ready to defend Lithuania. And beeing able to get the training of our mechanized forces on the propper level. And so Germany has to get more new Leos.

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So you currently do not have the Leo’s for those requirements? Well if you need to accelerate production, it can be done in time but I worry about current readiness of all the forces. This is something politicians don’t seem to pay attention to.

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I am not invited to need to know meetigs but:

Priority 1: As long Ukrain is fighting, the mechanized brigade with friends is enough to guard Lithuanias borders to Belarus and the Kaliningrad cauldron.

Priority 2: Training can be done in both formations.

Priority 3: S. Korea or Taiwan are not Nato members.

Germany is bleeding its defence cappablities to support Ukraine, but nobody cares or is not shouting the opposite.

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