Operations against Serbia came at the tail end of the Yugoslavian Breakup Wars when Serbia, after instigating violence in Slovenia, Croatia and especially Bosnia turned on Kosovo. The West was heartily sick of Serbia’s meddling and war-mongering and wanted it over. Until the Russo-Ukrainian War it was the deadliest war in Europe since 1945.
After the NATO intervention, the wars ended.
“Beogradski” by name is a hint.
Typical example of starting with wrong assumptions and coming to wrong conclusions.
That is same as saying that Ukraine instigated violence in Russian speaking parts - Donbass, Crimea, Odessa, Kharkov, etc. Yugoslavia was a sovereign nation, Croatia and Slovenia declared unilateral independence (same as Luhansk and Donetsk did).
Bosnia is separate, tragic, case of Americans destroying a peace accord signed by all parties to prevent the war, by promising support for one side - and than leaving them high and dry - like Ukraine. This is an account of Canadian Ambassador to Yugoslavia.
It was the time of uni-polar world and west though they can do whatever they want without consequences.
Thirty years later chicken came home to roost. Russians are using precedents, language, methods created by the west.
Russia and China have asked for new security arrangements on a world scale to be established, in order to recognize new realities. West has ignored it.
I am Canadian and remember that time quite well. John Bissett is well-known to have a serb bias and was sacked from his ambassadorial post in 1992. His racist claims about Muslim law are pure dogwhistles. No wonder he was sacked.
Second, Yugoslavia had been unstable for decades. Nobody was surprised when it came apart. The key difference was that the Croat and Slovene declarations were democratic expressions with popular support; Russia’s declarations in Donbass are a farce.
Third, Serbia could have accepted its pre-1914 birders in 1990, it didnt.
Further, there has bein no evidence of any Ukrainian violence in Crimea, Donbas or anywhere else. There was no need or motive.
Anyway, back to Russia losing a war…
Rendered irrelevant because of the breakup of Yugoslavia? I highly doubt that, especially considering this memorandum was signed after that breakup.
Except in this case it was clearly intended as a defensive measure. Also, during the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, all NATO members were asked to paticipate, but did not have to. Doesn’t make the operation more legitimate and I can see you are salty about this, but you should stop citing one shitty thing a country does as justification for a whole list of shitty things.
Just because you say it’s a reason doesn’t mean its a good reason.
None of that changes the facts - accounts of events are available even on Wikipedia
On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia.
Again, none of that makes it legal - it was unilateral declaration of independence - contrary to Helsinki Final Act. Absolute equivalent of Dombass today.
UN reports confirm 14000 deaths in Ukraine’s war on Donbass. Ukrainian President Poroshenko: “Their children will hole up in the basements - this is how we win the war!”
That is a genocide, my friend.
TLDR: Serbian nationalists are furious that Ukraine is getting all this sympathy, whereas they got none in 1999, so now they live vicariously through Russia. And are in for a similar disappointment.
Serbia got sympathies of four Noble Prize winners. And most of people who oppose US hegemony.
Which is most of the world.
14000 deaths is not an indicator of genocide, but of war. Spoiler alert: soldiers die in war. That does not make it genocide. You also conveniently didn’t cite the actual report. I am sure that if you did we could quickly determine how out of context you had to take this one. Almost none of your sources give actual good facts. It is all made up of rethoric that in a certain context is completely understandale, but can also be made to look very violent. That is not a casus belli, but a fabrication of one.
I was providing evidence of Ukrainian violence in response to
Threat by government that “their” children will hole up (rot) in basements, is a call for genocide.
As for sources, I am assuming that most people could do basic check themselves.
More over, Ukraine has apparently planned operation similar to the Storm (Oluja) Croatians did against UN protected Krajina regions in 1995:
Maybe that explains the timing of Russian intervention?
As a part of history trivia and some context of history of Ukraina (Ukrajna in Serbian) has interesting links with Krajina region of present day Croatia. Namely, both Ukraina and Krajina were created as a military border regions and inhabited by Serbian population - soldiers working on the land.
Krajina was created through Statuta Valachorum
Based on the Grenzers’ petitions[7] and the court statement, Emperor Ferdinand II issued the Statuta Valachorum on 5 October 1630, in effect in the Varaždin generalate, that is, the captaincies of Koprivnica, Križevci and Ivanec.[17] The statute was signed in Regensburg, and was a compromise to the Grenzers’ demands.[19] It was given to a delegation of twelve Grenzers, military commanders and clergy.[19] The Orthodox refugee community, called “Vlachs”,[20] were mainly Serbs.](Statuta Valachorum - Wikipedia)
Ukraina had two regions with the same purpose also inhabited by Serbian population
The settlement was founded by Serbian settlers in 1753.[3] From 1753 to 1764, Slovianoserbsk was the capital of Russian territory Slavo-Serbia as Podgornoie (Russian: Подгорное, romanized: Podgornoye; or Pidhirne, Ukrainian: Підгірне; 1754–84). In 1764 Slavo-Serbia was transformed into the Donets county and in 1784 the town was renamed into Donetskoie](Slovianoserbsk - Wikipedia)
In 1751 (or in some sources 1750) the Russian envoy in Vienna Count Mikhail Petrovich Bestuzhev-Ryumin was contacted by colonel of the Austrian military Jovan Horvat with request to allow him and other Serbs to resettle in the Imperial Russia. They were Granichary (Grenz infantry) that used to protect the Austrian buffer territory “Vojna Krajina” (War Land) from the Ottoman Turks.
The region was named after Serbs, who migrated in 1752 to the Russian Empire from the Military Frontier of the Habsburg monarchy. Russian authorities gave these Serbian settlers a land, which thus acquired its name, New Serbia soon after the War of the Austrian Succession. As the Pannonian Frontier, New Serbia was also organized into military province located on the Russian-Polish border and on the land of Buhogard palanka, Zaporizhian Sich.](New Serbia (historical province) - Wikipedia)
From those same sources
So perhaps bother with reading more than the headlines of your sources. These are casualties of war, not of genocide.
If you bother checking this source, you can see that it is flagged as presented out of context. More over, if you bother checking the pulisher of the article, you will see that it is a Venezuelan outlet and the two notable persons in their advisory board are Adolfo Perez Esquivel, a supporter of Nicolas Maduro, and Ignacio Ramonet, an admirer of Fidel Castro. Both have a pretty intense hatred for anything related to the United States, the west and anything neoliberal. Personally, I would be careful and critical with anything published by those tankies, but I see you’re not.
I don’t need to hear your justification for why the breakup of Yugoslavia was ultimately a mistake and that Serbia should reestablish rule over them all. We know those independence wars produced a lot of war criminals. We only need to look at Srebrenica for that
Don’t you think that if Srebrenica is genocide, with few thousand men of fighting age who mostly died fighting to escape, then 14000 in Donbass, of which more than 3000 are civilians, including women and children - that is definitely genocide.
Or you one of those who think that killing 500,000 Iraqi “worth it”.
I don’t justify anything, just looking at facts from both sides. So that whoever is interested can judge on their own.
The killings referred to as genocide in Srebrenica consist of targeted executions and murder. That is different from a war situation where soldiers are killed in combat. War is brutal and people die, but it is very different from targeted killings. The civilian casualties in the Donbass are mostly collateral damage from artillery shelling, caught in crossfire or incidents with mines and explosive remnants.
Not unimportant here is that 14000 deaths are totalled over both sides. To speak of war crimes, crimes against humanity or war crimes we also need to have a specific purpetrator and a specific target. One example: the shooting down of MH17 was a war crime conducted by Russian forces operating a BUK missile system.
Not all casualties of war are by definition war crimes or genocide. These sources that you’re mentioning also don’t claim them to be, but somehow you are. I am not denying that war crimes occur, but you can’t just lump sum a casualty count and call it genocide.
I read the article describing the war conditions and it sounds nothing like genocide at all in Ukraine. What it sounds like is a nasty insurgency using lots of mines and other indiscriminate killers. Very sad and ugly with lots of outside interference.
I saw today that Germany announced they were suspending arms shipments to UkraIne. Totally understandable since it sounds like their stocks are low. I hope for the sake of NATO, that their readiness doesn’t suffer.
And yes they are still doing their part by providing maintenance but my concern is more for The status of the German forces.
The german goverment will instead pay for arms directly delivered from manufacturers.
See more here Ukraine conflict: Rheinmetall prepared to supply Leopard 1s to Kyiv
Interesting news. Be curious to see the Russian propaganda of. German tanks attacking Russian formations.
Again, not critical but readiness across the board for NATO forces is somewhat concerning. Ukraine was requesting more Javelin missiles than production could provide. I don’t want NATO involved but the Better their training and readiness, the better any response options will be.
well… that is what Hitler thought too… when he invaded the soviets and well… look how it turned out.
The point being… never ever underestimate your enemy. The soviet underestimated the fins and today the entire war has become a meme. The Germans underestimated the soviets and the rest is history. The Americans underestimated the Vietnamese and dropped more bombs than all of the bombs dropped in ww2 combined and lost. Napoleon underestimated the Russians and was pushed all the way back to Baguette land.