Eleventh meeting of the Foreign Ministers, 11:25 a.m.
Present | ||
---|---|---|
United States | United Kingdom | Soviet Union |
Secretary Byrnes | Foreign Secretary Bevin | Foreign Commissar Molotov |
Mr. Dunn | Sir Alexander Cadogan | Mr. Gromyko |
Mr. Clayton | Sir Archibald Clark Kerr | Mr. Vyshinsky |
Mr. Page | Major Theakstone | Mr. Gusev |
Department of State Minutes
Potsdam, August 1, 1945, 11:25 a.m.
Top secret
The final meeting of the Foreign Ministers opened at 11:25 a.m. on August 1, 1945 under the chairmanship of Mr. Byrnes.
German Reparations
MR. BYRNES stated that he would read a list of questions which were pending. First was the question of German Reparations. He inquired whether the Committee [Subcommittee] was ready to report and stated that he was informed that this Committee was now in session. Therefore, for the time being the subject would be passed over. He believed Mr. Vyshinski was on the subcommittee and wondered whether there was anything Mr. Vyshinski could say.
MR. VYSHINSKI replied that the subcommittee had examined this matter and that some questions were in a state of suspense. Also new questions had arisen.
MR. BYRNES stated his assumption that the Committee would not be able to report in this case.
MR. MOLOTOV agreed.
MR. BYRNES announced that the subject would therefore be submitted to the Big Three at 3 p.m.
MR. VYSHINSKI stated that this had been assumed.
MR. BYRNES suggested that the agenda for the Big Three be prepared as the meeting progressed.
German Economic Principles
The second question concerned German economic principles. The same subcommittee had this question and was drafting on it, particularly on paragraph 19.
MR. MOLOTOV pointed out that not one economist was present.
MR. BEVIN interjected to state that the meeting might settle the matter if the economists were absent.
German Fleet
MR. BYRNES stated that the third question concerned the disposition of the German fleet. He understood that there was a division of opinion on this subject and wondered whether it could be discussed profitably at this meeting.
MR. MOLOTOV pointed out that members of the Committee were not present.
MR. BYRNES stated that he had received a report from the U.S. representative and assumed that the British and Soviet delegates had also received reports. He inquired whether this is true.
MR. MOLOTOV suggested that the members of the Committee be called in since he did not know about their last conclusions.
MR. BYRNES remarked that he had been advised regarding the differences of opinion and that the British Foreign Minister had also received information. If members of the Committee were called in the question could be discussed.
MR. MOLOTOV then stated that he would try to become acquainted with recent developments while the meeting was in session. He went on to suggest an adjournment of ten minutes when the representatives arrived in order that the matter might be studied.
War Crimes
MR. BYRNES then raised the matter of war crimes which had not been settled by the Big Three. The British draft on this subject had the approval of the U.S. delegation and the substantial approval of the Soviet delegation which desired, however, to name certain criminals.
MR. BEVIN stated that the British delegation was opposed to naming the specific criminals and felt on this matter like the American delegation. He thought that it would be misunderstood if it was done before the court sat. It would contravene certain principles upon which the British Judiciary works. The British therefore feel strongly that the British proposal meets the case. It also feels that every step should be taken in our power to get on with the trials at the earliest possible moment.
MR. BYRNES pointed out that the U.S. delegation, as stated yesterday, feels that the determination of prisoners to be prosecuted should be left to the prosecutors selected by the three governments and that the decision should not be taken from them. He hoped that our Soviet friends could agree.
MR. MOLOTOV suggested reference to the Big Three.
MR. BYRNES agreed.
Allied Property Used in Satellite Reparations
MR. BYRNES next raised the matter of the use of Allied property in the settlement of satellite reparations.
MR. MOLOTOV pointed out that on this question it was difficult to do without the Commission [without consideration by a subcommittee?] particularly since the proposal had only been received yesterday.
MR. BYRNES replied that the proposal had been circulated on the 25th of July.
MR. MOLOTOV insisted that that had been a different document.
MR. BYRNES stated his belief that he was misunderstood. He asked for the consideration of the document circulated on the 25th which referred to the property of Allied nationals.
MR. MOLOTOV again asked whether they were discussing the July 25th document.
MR. BYRNES confirmed this.
MR. BEVIN then asked for a copy.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that it was probable that the July 25th document had not been circulated at a regular meeting but had been distributed in a Committee. He and Mr. Vyshinski had only seen this document yesterday. It is an important question which should be given full consideration. He again wondered how the meeting could proceed without the commission. He asked whether the commission could consider the matter today.
MR. BYRNES agreed and stated that a Committee would be appointed.
MR. BEVIN again asked which document was meant and read one before him.
MR. BYRNES agreed that this was the document.
MR. MOLOTOV interjected that Mr. Bevin knew as little about it as the Russians. He pointed out that there were two documents.
MR. BYRNES asked to look at the two documents and then stated that on July 25 the paper in Mr. Byrnes’ hand regarding the removal of Allied property from Rumania [Germany] had been circulated. On the same day another one regarding the use of Allied property in satellite reparations had been distributed. This was the one which he wished to have discussed.
MR. MOLOTOV inquired about the first document.
MR. BYRNES stated that the paper referring to Germany was withdrawn. He would not ask for consideration.
MR. BEVIN stated that the question now concerned the appointment of a drafting committee.
MR. BYRNES named Mr. Russell and Mr. Cannon.
MR. MOLOTOV named Mr. Gusev and Mr.———.
MR. BEVIN named Mr. Turner and Mr. Coulson.
German External Assets
MR. BYRNES stated that the next paper circulated concerned German external assets. This subject was before the economic subcommittee and would have to be passed.
Oil for Western Europe
MR. BYRNES stated that the document regarding oil for Western Europe was also before the Economic Subcommittee which was waiting to hear from the Soviet representative.
Allied Oil Equipment in Rumania
MR. BYRNES pointed out that the latest British proposal regarding Allied oil equipment in Rumania had not yet been acted upon.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that on this question the Soviet delegation had made a written proposal to the British five days ago.
MR. BEVIN asked whether he would receive this written proposal today.
MR. MOLOTOV repeated that it had been sent several days ago, probably on July 28.
MR. BEVIN then stated that he had the document before him now. Mr. Bevin pointed out that there were real differences between the British and Soviet drafts since the British have proposed arbitration and the Soviet proposal was for a joint Soviet-British investigating committee.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that this Commission would make a general spot investigation of all documents and facts.
MR. BEVIN replied that the British preferred a neutral, since investigation on a lower level would mean no agreement.
MR. MOLOTOV replied that until now the question had been discussed on a diplomatic level. The Soviet Government now proposes that representatives of both sides should be appointed to investigate. Neither the documents nor the facts in this case have been examined.
MR. BEVIN wished to know what would happen when the investigation had been made.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that they hoped for a settlement. If the Committee failed, however, the next step should be examined. However, no investigation had yet been made.
MR. BYRNES stated that he wished to add that when the paper on this subject had been presented, the U.S. delegation had pointed out that American as well as British interests were involved. Therefore any Commission must have an American representative.
MR. MOLOTOV replied that so far as the American proposal was concerned, a bilateral commission should also be set up.
MR. BYRNES agreed. He thought that they should first make an effort to settle this matter between themselves. He pointed out that American experts have been there for several weeks but up to now have been unable to obtain any agreement from the Soviet experts. He thought that the orderly way to settle this matter is for Mr. Molotov to have his experts meet ours.
MR. BEVIN stated that he wished clarification. He inquired whether it was proposed to set up two bilateral commissions.
MR. MOLOTOV replied that he had suggested two bilateral investigations.
MR. BYRNES asked whether a date could be agreed upon since our experts were already there. He suggested a meeting in 10 days.
MR. MOLOTOV agreed.
MR. BYRNES pointed out that this meeting would be in Rumania.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that it would be on the basis of their documents.
MR. BYRNES asked that the investigation not be limited by any document.
MR. MOLOTOV agreed that the Commission should discuss this matter.
MR. BYRNES insisted that the Commission should not be limited by a document but should be permitted to investigate the facts.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that the Russians would not limit discussions.
MR. BYRNES agreed.
MR. BEVIN stated his assumption that steps would be taken to give all necessary facilities to the experts to go about in Rumania.
MR. MOLOTOV replied that this went without saying. Both the British and Russians would take the necessary steps.
Protocol
MR. BYRNES then stated that he had been advised by the Protocol Committee of certain differences. He wished to know whether his colleagues had also received a report on this subject in order that the points of difference could be discussed. He stated that the questions before the meeting are:
1. Trusteeship Territories
MR. MOLOTOV interjected to state that the Soviet delegation had circulated a document regarding activities in Germany and Austria hostile to the Soviet Union.
MR. BEVIN stated that this document had been sent to London for the preparation of a reply.
MR. MOLOTOV asked whether it could not be agreed that the British and American delegates will insist upon a rapid investigation of this case and take measures to stop such activities.
MR. BYRNES stated that he had thought that we had made it plain that we had taken steps to investigate. An inquiry had been sent to the Army Commander.
MR. MOLOTOV suggested that the meeting might confine itself to the following:
The American and British Delegates had taken steps to investigate and will let the Soviet Government know of the results and also stated that activities of hostile organizations will not be tolerated.
MR. BYRNES repeated that we have asked for a report from our Army Commander. If he reports that there is nothing to these allegations there will be nothing to do. If these statements are substantially correct, proper steps will be taken.
MR. MOLOTOV asked whether if it were evident that such organizations existed, then they would not be tolerated.
MR. BYRNES replied that when a report was received, it would be sent to Mr. Molotov. Then there could be a discussion of the steps to be taken.
MR. BEVIN pointed out that at Crimea we had undertaken not to allow hostile activities against the USSR. Therefore he could see no necessity for another document. If the Soviet Union had complaints to the effect that such activities were being carried on contrary to the agreement, attention should be called to that fact as had been done. It would then be our duty to act in accord with the spirit of the agreement.
MR. MOLOTOV agreed that this was sufficient. He went on to refer to another document presented by the Soviet Union regarding the repatriation of Soviet citizens coming from the Baltic and the Western Ukraine who were now in Norway and England. This document had been circulated on July 29. The memo was of primary interest to the British.
MR. BEVIN stated his belief that this case which had been handed to him after his arrival would be an easy matter to settle through diplomatic channels. He had asked London to go into it immediately and he undertook to deal with it immediately upon his return.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that this is satisfactory. Mr. Molotov went on to state that he was going to circulate another document dealing with complaints received from citizens who state that the agreement with the Soviet Union regarding Soviet prisoners of war is not being observed. This was a sore question with the Soviet Union. Many Soviet nationals had not yet been returned to their homes despite the fact that the war had been over for some time. He wished to ask that Soviet representatives on repatriation be admitted to camps where Soviet nationals were held.
MR. BEVIN pointed out that this matter had nothing to do with the Protocol.
MR. BYRNES replied that Mr. Molotov had asked for delay in consideration of the Protocol in order that other matters could be taken up.
MR. MOLOTOV continued that the question was contained in the document circulated beforehand [just circulated?]. He had no other questions if his colleagues promised to assist on this.
MR. BYRNES stated that he had been informed that our military was doing everything in their power. They want all of these people to return. We have enough people to feed without encouraging other people to remain. Mr. Molotov could rest assured that we would do everything possible to facilitate this matter.
MR. MOLOTOV repeated that he wished to have some attention paid to this question which was a burning one. There were many complications.
Trusteeship Territories
MR. BYRNES again referred to disputed questions before the Protocol Committee. The first question under dispute concerned trusteeship territories. He was informed that the Soviet representative had taken the position that the proposal should mention that the Soviet Government intended to raise with the Council of Foreign Ministers the disposal of all territories subject to trusteeship. The U.S. and British delegations want agreement among the [Big] Three to limit discussion to the disposal of Italian territory. They felt that only this could be mentioned in the Protocol.
MR. MOLOTOV pointed out that the Soviet memorandum which was circulated dealt with two questions. The first concerned the Italian colonies and the second the League of Nations Mandates. The Soviet question had been referred to the Council of Foreign Ministers in London. The Soviet delegation had agreed. He wished to ask that in drawing up the Protocol there should be a short recapitulation of the Soviet memorandum inserted with the conclusion that the declaration had been referred to the Council of Foreign Ministers. He wished to ask that the tone of the Soviet memorandum be reflected in the Protocol.
MR. BYRNES pointed out that this was not in accord with his recollection of the action taken by the Big Three. The fact is that the Soviet paper had asked for consideration of the whole question. Nevertheless discussion at the table was limited to Italian Colonies. The U.S. delegation contended that the question of what should be done to the Italian Colonies depended in the first instance on whether the Colonies would be separated from Italy. This question should be determined in the Peace Treaty, originally to be prepared in the Council of Foreign Ministers and therefore the question regarding trusteeship for Italian Colonies should be settled in the London Council of Foreign Ministers. The question of trusteeship as presented in the Soviet request was much broader and it was not his understanding that the Big Three had agreed to refer it to the Council of Foreign Ministers. In the discussion reference had been made to the language of the United Nations Charter which provided for agreement in certain circumstances but he did not understand that the Big Three had agreed to refer the whole question of trusteeships to the Council of Foreign Ministers.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that he would not press this matter. He would accept the wording of the British proposal with a slight amendment. He stated that the amendment would read as follows: (He read).
MR. BYRNES agreed.
Black Sea Straits
MR. BYRNES next raised the question of the Black Sea Straits. He stated that on this question he did not think there would be much trouble in reaching agreement. The Soviet draft had referred to the recognition of “necessity”. The British draft had mentioned “need.”
MR. MOLOTOV stated that he had no objection to “need.”
Western Frontier of the USSR
MR. BYRNES stated that the third question concerns the Western Frontier of the USSR. There are a number of questions in dispute here including the title and the Soviet representative had also objected to certain qualifying words which make it clear that the arrangement is provisional and subject to the peace settlement.
MR. BYRNES pointed out that the President had taken a position on all discussions such as this that it must be understood that the cession of territory would have to be left until the peace settlement.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that everyone agreed to this.
MR. BYRNES replied that it seemed to him then that we should be careful to use language which would not mislead people into believing that we intended an immediate transfer of territory. The question was no doubt misunderstood because of the difference in language. The word “transfer” would in English carry a meaning of the cession of territory.
MR. MOLOTOV suggested an amendment to the title which would read “pending final settlement of territorial questions at the peace settlement.”
MR. BYRNES asked what difference the title made as long as the Soviet Union got the territory it wanted.
MR. MOLOTOV asked for suggestions.
MR. BYRNES replied that as long as there is no difference between us, they should be able to find words. He suggested that the title be changed to “city of Koenigsberg and Adjacent Area.”
MR. MOLOTOV and MR. BEVIN agreed.
MR. MOLOTOV went on to state that there were certain difficulties in the text. If his colleagues agreed to his language, there would no longer be any difficulty.
MR. BEVIN stated that he had read what Mr. Churchill had said and this draft expressed Churchill’s thought clearly. He wanted to keep as close to the undertakings given by Churchill as possible. He suggested that Molotov agree to the British draft and then the Conference would be unanimous.
MR. MOLOTOV pointed out that he also had a good text.
MR. BEVIN then asked that the British draft be read and added that he thought it was all right. His interpreter read the draft.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that this was all right except for the word “provisionally.” The same paragraph said “pending final decision.” The idea had already been expressed. He proposed that the word “provisionally” be deleted in the first paragraph.
MR. BYRNES stated that he agreed that the only reason he could see for this difference is that the question had been raised. There must be a meeting of minds. So long as we agree with “a transfer pending final determination,” he would not insist on this word. He again asked Mr. Molotov whether he agreed that there is no question but that this is a transfer pending final determination.
MR. MOLOTOV replied “Of course.”
MR. BYRNES and MR. BEVIN then agreed to strike out the word “provisionally.”
MR. MOLOTOV then suggested that the last part of the sentence reading “subject to expert examination” be deleted.
MR. BEVIN stated that this wording is vital to the British. Churchill, speaking for the British, had made it quite clear. The Soviet delegation had at that time made no objection to these experts. He thought that during all history boundaries had been determined in such a manner.
MR. MOLOTOV agreed that it could not be otherwise. There would be no authority until the boundary had been mapped.
MR. BYRNES asked why in this case Mr. Molotov objected.
MR. MOLOTOV stated that he thought this not nice but if you are so anxious we agree.
MR. MOLOTOV then proposed a last amendment. He suggested that the words “in principle” be deleted from the last paragraph since they appear in the preceding paragraph. It was enough to mention this once.
MR. BYRNES then suggested that the words “agreement of the conference” be inserted after the words “they will support.”
MR. MOLOTOV stated that this would be all right without the words “in principle.”
MR. BEVIN then suggested the words “conclusions of conference” instead of the word “agreement.” This would avoid misunderstanding.
MR. MOLOTOV then suggested the word “proposal.”
MR. BEVIN and MR. BYRNES agreed.