Mark Felton seems a very reliable source ( everything I could check is true) and he works from original sources, wrote lots of books and does original research: Well make up your own mind and question everything I write as well and let me know if not correct. I appreciate critique
5 Likes
I appreciate your addition and I think you have it all straight and correct, especially considering the Japanese fear of losing their emperor, which I think was a gamechanger for them, as soon as the USA was willing to keep Hiro Hito on the throne, although more or less as a puppet, they finally gave in
Keeping Bushido honour and keeping face has always been more important to the Japanese military elite than life itself
3 Likes
For a HS student your well read IRT WWII. Your right on with much of what you say. I ask you look at the Japanese Emperor and his roll in ending the war. He had a part and some say he was the one who ended it.
4 Likes
Just got a heads up from the Timeghost Team they will look into this matter as it will be approaching the WW2 IRT series 
great stuff!
3 Likes
Sources that I have found tend to suggest that the Japanese were terrified of the USSR invading the Japanese mainland and executing the Emperor. It is unequivocal that Stalin planned to order this, and Japan, without a fleet to stop a Soviet invasion, could only (perhaps) stop this without surrendering to the Western Allies first. There is good evidence that the Japanese illegally defended South Sakhalin against the USSR after the surrender date, and the USSR planned to invade Hokkaido. The USSR did invade the Kurile Islands successfully as well. Frankly the firebombing of Tokyo did more damage to Japan than the atomic bombs hitting provincial cities, both in terms of loss of life and loss of capital. Having their military wiped out in a fortnight by the USSR and the prospect of a rapid Soviet invasion seems a credible reason for the Japanese to be far more scared of the Soviets than the allies.
1 Like
Again which sources are you talking about. Please share. Phrases like âit is unequivocal Stalin planned to order thisâ sound that there was NO order and that the writer seems to mindread Stalin.
As for no fleet, The Japanese had thousands of Kamikazes which probably would have swooped down on the Soviet fleets. See Okinawa where the US fleet suffered substantially in spite of the Kamikaze killing planes. Th US even had to design the Bearcat.
Also see the timeline above the Kuriles invasion happened AFTER the surrender and are not an argument.
2 Likes
By the time the Red Army invaded Mantsjukwo, Japanese forces were solely committed on defending their home ground. Fully depleted of naval power and air power, for that matter. Only a few cherryblossem Ohkaâs left and no pilots to fly them. There was only the hope that the Japanese ground forces, together with every able brave citizen would stand up and defend the pending assault by the US on their own soil. However, when the USSR proclaimed war on Japan, the game was up and the Japanese cabinet knew that negotiations should be initiated rather sooner than later, looking at the rapid territorial gains, made by the Red ArmyâŚAlso preserving the status of the Emperor was a mayor issue, which the Soviets would surely have denied the Japanese, should they be enabled to have a bigger say in the peace negotiations. So, imho, this is the main reason for Japan to surrender to the US, preventing more shame and loss of face and also territory. The atom bombs even can be looked upon as a welcome excuse of a way out of the conflict without loosing face, which, again imho, is of the upmost importance in Japanese culture.
3 Likes
Hi good points, but I think you underestimate the difficulties of an opposed landing on mainland Japan a little. Especially before the surrender speech of Hiro Hito, (the autocorrect tried to change it to Hiro Hitler). 
Anyway this work is very detailed on the start of the occupation and the difficulties but also the unexpectedly great cooperation with the Japanese.
E.g. on page 134 there is lots of data on the tunnels and e.g. 6000 kamikaze planes and the fuel drums that came in handy to burn 
them. Would have made great museum relics.
https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/macarthur%20reports/macarthur%20v1%20sup/ch5.htm
3 Likes
In August of 1945, it was certainly not clear to Japan that the US would not hang the Emperor without a trial.
3 Likes
That is why the initial negotiations needed a follow up, because the Japanese would only consider surrender under the sole condition that Hiro Hito would remain as emperor. It is a well known fact that Japan was dreading the Red Army more than the US forces, but they also needed the benevolent posture of the Western Allies to save what was left op their empire, including its leader.
1 Like
Japan was never granted that the Emperor could stay. The history books call it âunconditional surrenderâ and they agreed and signed that doc. Douglas Macarthur leveraged a possible war crimes trial against the Emperor to get him to adopt views and make political speeches that favored US goals in post war Japan.
All of us can look back 75 years on and say that Japan was better off being occupied by US troops and not Soviet, but what came next, good or bad, after Sept 1945 was not known to them at the time.
Iâm not aware of any of the Japanese Empire being saved.
1 Like
I believe negotiations were covert but clearly resulting in both Japan and the US getting the best out of it, leaving the Soviets with not many pickings, teaming up for the cold war which was already a fact of life
2 Likes
Interesting point, there was a lot happening at the same time but two assumptions can safely be made:
1 25 years before there were Japanese an US American fighting the Bolsheviks
2 As a result both wanted the other not to gain too much in any case.
Also it is clear that the Soviets didnât coincidentally attack on August 8th as it had spies in Los Ălamos. You canât organise an attack in 2 days.
Gerhard Weinberg,also states that connection was there and it is obvious. The Soviet timing depended on the nukes which thus were the root cause of later events. For Stalin it would have made much more sense to let the Western Allies do the dying and they were the only ones with the naval capability.
Using Wikipedia as a âsourceâ was forbidden in school with good reasons as it notably when the subject is controversial CRAP. And besides information can just disappear based on whatever the âmoderatorsâ want to show.
For example Hazegawa is a known bad kind revisionist who misreads sources and canât be trusted on anything.
The wikipart on the Soviets is an nonsensical documented opinion article:
Start quote:
â When the Russians invaded Manchuria, they sliced through what had once been an elite army and many Russian units only stopped when they ran out of gas. The Soviet 16th Armyâ100,000 strongâlaunched an invasion of the southern half of Sakhalin Island. Their orders were to mop up Japanese resistance there, and then within 10 to 14 daysâbe prepared to invade Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japanâs home islands. The Japanese force tasked with defending Hokkaido, the 5th Area Army, was under strength at two divisions and two brigades, and was in fortified positions on the east side of the island. The Soviet plan of attack called for an invasion of Hokkaido from the west. The Soviet declaration of war also changed the calculation of how much time was left for maneuver.
Japanese intelligence was predicting that U.S. forces might not invade for months. Soviet forces, on the other hand, could be in Japan proper in as little as 10 days. The Soviet invasion made a decision on ending the war extremely time sensitive.
â Ward Wilson, Foreign Policy [[94]](Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia
End quote.
For one the author omits that:
The Soviets tanks had crushed the Japanese in 1939 so it was no surprise that they would do it again. So there was no elite Army before which could take on the T-34s of the Soviets.
â Soviet forces, on the other hand, could be in Japan proper in as little as 10 days.â I guess he means the Kuriles.
Fact-checking:
The historical facts are that the Soviets did not even invade the tiny Kuriles until after Hiro Hito Made his surrender speech. 15th surrender, 18th invasion. Ok after 10 days the Soviets managed to take a small garrison that was already ordered by the Emperor to surrender. Of course Soviet propaganda turned that into a great victory. Whatever.
I am quite willing to change my mind if someone shows me evidence that the Soviets were the main reason for Japans surrender. So far there is no evidence just frankly pathetically misleading texts disguised as convincing narratives.
Chewie
4 Likes
Project Hula, US landing craft for the USSR
Just to add to it, finally found. The Soviets lacked a strong Navy with landing ships, so the US lend-leased a small invasion fleet with 15 landing craft. These were used against the Kuriles and 5 landing craft were sunk and the fighting did stop when higher Japanese command told them to.
Interesting a lot of the training of the Soviets took place in lovely Dutch Harbor in Unalaska, Alaska which like the Netherlands 
is on the 54th parallel. Which really surprised me in 2006. Lots of Bald Eagles there as well.
The study below contains the context, the training the battle were the Japanese faced suicidal charges for a changes and the fates of Soviet crewed US shipsđ˘
3 Likes
My POV is that japan surrendering is a combination of factor, not just 1 factor as it is often portrayed. Iâd not go to the point of saying that the atomics bombs had no influence in the surrendering, same with the soviet invasion
3 Likes
You are very much right on your assumption. My point of starting this topic was mostly motivated by the point you just made. I merely evoked reactions by stating a blunt point of view, looking at the amount of reactions, I guess I gave a much appreciated addition to this great forum and Army.
Much appreciate your contribution!
2 Likes
I much appreciate your contribution as it contained original points and let me to some digging as well. Great cooperation and thanks to all the posters. Keep posting
3 Likes
Thanks Chewie! Appreciate your comments as well and we, hopefully, stay as armymembers here for a long time, feeding each other with knowledge and good vibes!
2 Likes
Hello, Harry. The same - sorry for my spelling)))
My grandpa Grigory was a dive bomber pilot in Soviet-Japan theater in 1938,1939 and 1945. He didnât like tell me story about German front and now I understand why, he was in terrible situation like a fire in aircraft over enemy positions, a lot of lost colleagues etc. But it was not very interesting for, because we had a big course about German and Axis invasion at school. All, all my friends had family stories about fighting, occupation etc. Some relatives couldnât even hearing German language from tourists. Otherwise we knew about Far East theater very little and I asked a lot of questions. Grandpa told for me a lot off âfunnyâ stories ( survived crew in deep wild forest âtaigaâ were completely drunk after third day search, so taiga was no very wild etc)))). But now I understand, those stories werenât very funny. He was colonel, very experienced, commander of 27 dive bombers squadron Pe 2. Japan Quantun army was very big, around 4 mln, with a lot of experience fighting against Chinese . With a strong military spirit and discipline. When I asked him about dangers to be captured POW by japs, his face changed and his smiling disappeared. Later he told story about few his colleagues, when our troops found pilots bodies after bayoneting. Anyway my grandpa had a moral of winner against Japan, smiling about âJaps put aggressive sea-urchin in American Perl harbor â. He told about bloody fighting in Curilien islands and Sakhalin, but HE UNDERSTAND, that Americans trying to scare Soviets more than Tokyo. He told: Americans helped us, showed me his old Canadian pilotâs jacket. And : We must help Americans against Japs in China , but anyway Americans won in war in Tokyo, not Soviet Union. Otherwise, he was absolutely assured about our Victory in Berlin. He understand, that we were lucky, that Japan turn their carriers and power to the South and had a little grateful about it to Americans, but grandpa was sure, that Japs were frightened by him and our army in 1938,1939. Thanks, Harry for very interesting topic and sorry for my private emotions))))
4 Likes
Thank you so much for sharing your personal story and that of your brave grandfather! I much appreciate it, Valery!
3 Likes