Did the American capture of hill 609 and Mateur earn the respect of the British?

Alamein: Monty doesn’t attack - Bad Monty!
Alamein (2): Monty does attack and keeps attacking - Bad Monty!
El Agheila: Monty doesn’t attack - Bad Monty!
Caen: Monty attacks - Bad Monty!

It seems he can’t win - ironic, given that he does.

It seems the magic response to anything other than immediate success is “improvisation”. I see this as nonsense because the operations were planned to go as they did, with a notable exception. At Alamein, the attack was insisted to continue (apparently a bad thing?) which led to victory in the Western Desert. Likewise in Normandy, the attack was continued, despite initial failure, which eventually led to the breakout from Normandy - not from British and Commonwealth actions, but by drawing in the Panzer armies to allow for American breakthrough. How selfish of Monty!

It is a mistake to assume the leading unit takes the most casualties. The sum of casualties in all Monty’s battles, per nation, would no doubt put Germany on top.

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… this is post-battle revisionism. Monty said he’d take Caen on D-Day, and when that didn’t happen, he kept battering away at it. That whole “kept the Germans on the right” stuff is invented; Monty intended to take Caen and break out into central France, and kept trying to do that. The only reason “Operation Cobra” was necessary was because Monty couldn’t.

Monty doesn’t counterattack after bleeding Rommel.
Monty’s plan for the attack doesn’t match reality.
Monty desperately uses whatever’s left to break through.
Monty does. After a week.
Monty continues to follow a plan that doesn’t match reality.
Rommel gets away.
Bad Monty.

Monty moves up to El Agheila. Monty dithers. for three weeks.
Monty moves up to Mareth.
Monty sits while Rommel goes off to attack at Kasserine.
Bad Monty.

Monty doesn’t attack Caen (6th)
Monty attacks Caen (10th)
Monty attacks Caen (26th)
Monty attacks Caen (July 8th)
Monty attacks right next to Caen (July 18th)
Monty attacks Caen (July 18th - with Canadians)
Monty attacks right next to Caen (July 25th) in conjunction with “Operation Cobra”. Monty’s attack fails, by the way.
Monty ‘succeeds’, but only because of “Operation Cobra”
Bad Monty.

Monty doesn’t clear Antwerp (which would solve everybody’s supply problems at a stroke)
Monty plans Market-Garden
Monty ignores intelligence
Monty steals supplies (that he had said could be supplied to everyone without Antwerp)
Monty decides that 1/3 of the transport aircraft needed are enough
Monty doesn’t notice the possibilities that the Germans might be able to figure out what he’s trying to do and stop it.
Monty continues to stick to the plan without regard for reality.
Monty loses Market-Garden (“90 percent successful” my eye)
Bad Monty.

As a general, Viscount Montgomery of Alamein was not a serious artist. There were very few good generals - Manstein; Rommel; Guderian; Auchinleck; Bradley come to mind. Patton was kind of like Rommel, but not as clever (Rommel was better at reading his enemy. He respected Auchinleck above other British commanders he faced). Rommel and Patton both could not have commanded any unit larger than they did. Lots of mediocre generals, lots of bad ones.

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Rommel had lots of bad days too just like Patton. I’m not sure why everyone here gives Guderian a pass. As soon as he started to lose he threw a tantrum and got tossed out. He never commanded again. I mean I want to like him but his record has to speak for itself.

Montgomery was loved in Britain for a reason. He made them feel like winners and that they had put a genius in charge. He had great propaganda.

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You don’t like “Hasty Heinz”? His glory days were up until 1942, to be sure; but two-and-a-half years of showing what could be done is still pretty good. As Inspector-General he had a hand in every pie for armored divisions; as Chief of the General Staff, he oversaw the lot.

Not a bad career for someone on the losing side…

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I read his memoirs and feel he was a major proponent of the clean Wehrmacht. He was a good general and maneuvered his troops effectively and his men liked him.he was a professional soldier who tolerated the crimes going on. He had to know the methods involved.

He was an important cog in an evil machine and it bothers me he never faced up to this. I feel an honest look at his war service needs to acknowledge that he tolerated great evil as well as performed well. This makes him like most other Nazis but he was well informed of what was going on.

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Bernhard Kast (I believe that’s how his name is spelled) did a “Military History Visualized” video on Guderian - Guderian – Myth & Reality « Quotulatiousness

I also have a not-yet-posted Quote of the Day on Guderian:

A salutary example of a major German general whose reputation has plummeted from hero to zero is Heinz Guderian. He played a crucial part in military history as the creator of the panzer division. Beginning in 1929, he struggled to persuade his superiors to adopt his ideas; only after Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 did the new concept become reality.

As a commander of these wholly new armoured formations, Guderian devised the breakthrough in the Ardennes in May 1940 which brought France to her knees. In Russia, he led the assault on Moscow; when it failed he was dismissed.

In 1943 he was reinstated as inspector general of Armoured Troops, with the task of rebuilding the panzer divisions; in July 1944, after the Allied invasion of Europe and the failed plot against Hitler, he was made chief of the General Staff. In March 1945, just over a month before the war ended, he was replaced by Hitler and retired to his estate.

After the war, Guderian avoided prosecution, not least thanks to B.H. Liddell Hart, the military historian and defence correspondent, who debriefed him along with other German generals. Liddell Hart championed Guderian as a pioneering “genius” who had put his own theories into practice. He also contributed a preface to the general’s bestselling memoir, Panzer Leader, which appeared in 1958, fluently translated by Constantine Fitzgibbon. The English version, unlike the German original, makes fulsome mention of his intellectual debt to “Captain Liddell Hart”, presumably inserted by Guderian at his British sponsor’s behest.

A striking passage describes how Hitler, just after assuming power in 1933, watched Guderian’s armoured units on manoeuvres. The new chancellor was much impressed, repeatedly exclaiming: “That’s what I need! That’s what I want to have!” Guderian evidently reciprocated the enthusiasm, struck by the fact that Hitler was the first chancellor since Bismarck to visit their Kummersdorf training ground.

Though the general is at pains throughout his book to distance himself from the Nazis and their Führer, it is clear that their bond was real: it was Hitler who believed in his vision of the irresistible power of the new panzer division: a minimum of 400 tanks, integrated with motorised infantry and artillery.

It was Hitler who gave him the opportunity to prove his worth in a “war of manoeuvre”, designed to overcome the dreaded trench warfare of 1914-18. (The Germans themselves disdained the term Blitzkrieg, used by Western journalists to describe their campaigns of 1939-40). And it was Hitler who trusted Guderian to salvage something from the wreck of his unwinnable war.

For all these reasons, Guderian served Hitler almost to the bitter end, taking refuge in a facade of professionalism and joining forces with the armaments minister, Albert Speer. Both these technocrats contributed to the once-dominant narrative that made Hitler the scapegoat for the collective moral cowardice of the German establishment.

Daniel Johnson, “The moral blindness of Putin’s generals”, The Critic, 2022-05-10.

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Absolutely no argument on anything you just said. He turned his eyes away and announced there was nothing to see.

There is something that gets left out of many biographies: after the July 20th attempt on Hitler, Guderian, Rundstedt, and Keitel served as part of a ‘cleansing’ procedure (the “Army Court of Honor”). Anybody they decided was not Nazi-enough was removed from the Army. These unfortunates were then liable for arrest and trial by the Gestapo and the “People’s Court.” The three knew perfectly well they were throwing brother officers to the wolves.

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Qid, meet Pro Quo. Hart was trying to insert himself as the great thinker of the pre-war years, and used his position as inquisitor/historian to see to it that came to be. I doubt that Guderian cared one whit about what BHLH wrote in the book about himself. As we have seen, Guderian had his own history to re-write…

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Absolutely no argument on anything you just said. He turned his eyes away and announced there was nothing to see.

There is something that gets left out of many biographies: after the July 20th attempt on Hitler, Guderian, Rundstedt, and Keitel served as part of a ‘cleansing’ procedure (the “Army Court of Honor”). Anybody they decided was not Nazi-enough was removed from the Army. These unfortunates were then liable for arrest and trial by the Gestapo and the “People’s Court.” The three knew perfectly well they were throwing brother officers to the wolves.

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I’m very glad you mentioned his role in serving on the tribunals dealing with the assassination plot. I know you could argue what choice did he have but to me it also shows that he had little moral backbone and a desire to serve the military and Hitler regardless of the collateral damage.

And yes he was a skillful commander and innovator and reading his memoirs makes him sound quite the patriotic professional and all around good guy.

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I find this video useful on providing context for ‘Patton’ the general—from a professor at the Hoover Institute.

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Quite so. I think he thought of it more as ‘serving the Army’, against Hitler. But the effect was as you say - serving Hitler.

I suspect he rationalized it to himself that he could ‘control’ the process; to make sure that Hitler didn’t just arrest anybody in the military he didn’t like. “Better inside than outside.” But that’s the argument of someone whose morality is already compromised.

One might say it’s easy to judge, but a man of his stature could have simply refused to go along.

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To me that also sounds very much like Albert Speer. Both men accomplished much in the service of evil.

So whether or not Britain respected America, we got along and we fought the common enemy, (no, not the Peoples Judean Front!). There are things much more important than respect.

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I tried to organize a reunion of veterans of the Judean People’s Front Crack Suicide Squad, but could not contact any…

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REG: Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah…

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters…

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People’s Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters…

LORETTA: And the People’s Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters…

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People’s Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We’re the People’s Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People’s Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He’s over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

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